Negative Swinger Reactions to the No Kissing Rule

[00:00] [Phoebe] Welcome to Swinger University, the podcast that explores the exciting and often misunderstood
world of open relationships. I’m Phoebe. And I’m Ed. And together will be your guides as we
blend sex education and sensual exploration with an intellectual twist. Have you ever had a
no kissing rule? Why or why not? Do you think it’s weird? Do you see it as a jealousy issue between
couples? Is it your red flag? Why is it such a hot topic? And why is there this need to shame

[00:38] [Unknown] others for their wishes, desires and feelings? Plus, we are going to show you how you can honor

[00:45] [Phoebe] someone else’s rule without assigning shame or judgment and knowingly break the rule to see
what kissing someone else is like. I think this is going to be one of our best episodes ever.

[00:57] [Ed] Please rate and review Swinger University wherever you listen to our show. Your ratings help

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You can find all our links on SwingerUniversity.com. And of course, we love getting questions from

[01:17] [Ed] our audience. And you can leave us a voicemail at 916-538-0482 or contact us at SwingerUniversity.com.
Tell us your name, age and where you live or you can be anonymous.

[01:34] [Phoebe] If you’re a super fan of our show, consider supporting us on Patreon. As a member, you’ll have
access to exclusive content that’s even hotter than what we share on the podcast. So come join our

[01:45] [Ed] naughty community. We promise you won’t regret it. Here’s a question from one of our listeners.
We are new to the lifestyle and have had a few encounters. One of our rules is no kissing,

[01:58] [Unknown] except for my wife can kiss another female. One time, when we explained this to another couple,

[02:04] [Ed] they didn’t understand why and said it’s unusual. How do others in the lifestyle feel about kissing?

[02:11] [Phoebe] Are we the weird ones? We surveyed the Swinger community about 386 individuals to gain their insights
into the positive and negative aspects of swinging. And we are going to read some of those comments
to you. What was surprising to us was there were three times more negative comments than positive
ones. We were also surprised to see that they were mostly judgmental with some shame. Now,
this survey went all over the US. So it was a sampling of all the communities, not just our area.
And the reason I say that is because we haven’t experienced a lot of
judgments or shame in our community. A little bit recently, I’m starting to notice. I do not see

[03:05] [Ed] and have not seen it to this degree. Yeah, and it’s interesting in interactions, direct
interactions with people. We haven’t seen very much in the way of shaming.
I think some of this is keyboard safety and people get behind their keyboard. They have the
anonymity of the internet and they kind of let their bad inner child speak out. That’s unfortunate.

[03:36] [Phoebe] Surveyed and they just, but see that and they let their honesty out. Yeah, but that’s

[03:43] [Ed] you know, hey, it’s the inner voice coming out. Yeah, I guess that’s true. They’re inner voice
coming out. But at the same time, it’s interesting. It’s interesting because you and I think of
this as sex positivity and the whole lifestyle being all about sex positive. So to hear almost
any kind of negative commentary feels kind of counterintuitive to what the whole point of being

[04:19] [Phoebe] sex positive is. Correct. And it was to the degree that I decided what why don’t people like

[04:29] [Unknown] kissing? Right. And I thought, well, gosh, maybe, maybe there’s let’s step into the shoes of

[04:36] [Phoebe] the person that doesn’t like being kissed. Is there more than just the rule that we had in the

[04:42] [Ed] beginning, which was Ed stopped making out with the lady for at least 15 minutes so that you can

[04:48] [Phoebe] breathe. We had that no kissing rule briefly and we’ll get into that. But it was quickly changed
for us. And we’ll we’ll describe that later. Right. So let’s let’s let’s read some of these comments.
Everyone knows what we’re talking about. So we’re going to read the negatives first and then

[05:10] [Unknown] we’ll read the positives. But beware, there’s three times negative three times more. And I paired

[05:15] [Ed] them down honestly. Right. This isn’t all of them. This is just that this is a select few. Yeah,

[05:21] [Phoebe] I’m not going to bend your ear with all of that. Yes, this is a select few. Okay. So

[05:29] [Ed] do you want to start with first? Sure. It’s too weird not to kiss. It’s natural to do.
So a little bit of judgy, a little bit of shaming. Yeah.

[05:41] [Phoebe] Stick a penis in me, both vaginally and orally. It’s way more personal than kissing.

[05:48] [Ed] Which is semi debatable, but true and not and we’re going to go into why that’s different. Exactly.
I tend to stay away from people with rules too risky if something goes wrong. And of course,
our point with that is, wow, they’re going to miss out on a lot of stuff. You’re going to miss out

[06:09] [Phoebe] on a lot of cool shit. People with rules kill moods. Yeah. A little judgy. Yeah.
Not really sure what to do with that one. Right. And I probably should just refrain with

[06:24] [Ed] a moment. We always leave it at that. Yeah. It’s a red flag and a jealousy issue. So maybe it is,
maybe it isn’t. How do you know? Right. That’s ours wasn’t a jealousy issue. No, a lot of assumptions

[06:39] [Phoebe] there. And we are going to have other reasons why a little bit lighter. So keep hanging in there.
The next one, we are secure and not a jealous couple. Okay. Another jealousy pointer.

[06:52] [Unknown] Infer’s that if you’re insecure, you’re also jealous and therefore you have to have a role.

[07:00] [Ed] We see no kissing as a red flag indicates relationship issues. Maybe, maybe not. There’s

[07:09] [Phoebe] so many reasons. My question was, so what are they going to like shoot you? Like what do you
afraid of? I can’t imagine what would be the worst case scenario. What’s the fear? I don’t

[07:28] [Ed] understand. You get off the bed and move to the next room because they have some issue. I guess.

[07:33] [Phoebe] I don’t know. I don’t know. Most bizarre rule in the lifestyle rules are drama.

[07:41] [Ed] Wow. That one’s that’s pretty severe. Stop with the rules.

[07:46] [Unknown] Okay. If sex can be sex, why can’t kissing be kissing? I kind of have to translate that one

[07:55] [Phoebe] in my head because I’m not even sure what they’re. I guess if it’s the phrase, it’s only sex.
Yes. It’s only kissing. Right. Exactly. And I had this mental argument with myself early on.
And I couldn’t figure out why it was different. And I had to figure that out.

[08:18] [Ed] Well, we had the same argument going from soft swap to full swap or not argument,
conversation, mental, philosophical debate in our heads about, okay, why are we drawing the line?

[08:33] [Phoebe] Right. Because if the face is between my legs, how is the face to me? The face is more intimate
because you have eyes. You have the mouth. Right. Then. And so how are you swapping partners?
So what’s the difference between a mouth and a penis? Right. I know.
Sounds like a control issue. No lips means no oral. I’m out. Which means I’m not sure that’s

[09:04] [Ed] true of a no kissing rule. But okay, maybe I haven’t heard of it. You just missed out on a
real kissing of the vagina. But maybe it is. Okay. So a lot of, as you can tell,

[09:18] [Phoebe] there’s some shame and some judging and a lot of misopportunities. And so.
You have assumptions. A lot of assumptions. So I thought, well, gosh, you know,
I, I really need to, to help educate this community about this so that they can have
more fun. They can have more fun. Don’t let the rule be in your way. Work with the rule, right?
We just call those constraints. Yeah. All right. So here are some of the positive ones.
I don’t really like kissing as a whole unless it’s someone I love. It would not affect me at all

[09:52] [Unknown] to not do it in the lifestyle or at a party. Hm. The kiss is too sacred for me and I like to save
it for my partner. I understand that. I only like how my partner kisses. He knows what I like.

[10:10] [Ed] That does make sense. Which does make sense. I have had the opposite of that. Yes.

[10:15] [Phoebe] Happened before. Yes. And so we’re getting to that. Okay. So those are some of the quotes.

[10:21] [Ed] Yeah. So let’s just dig into this whole like no kissing rule in the swing or lifestyle. What

[10:27] [Phoebe] is this? Right. Right. So new people who, who typically uses the rule, the new people, right?

[10:33] [Ed] Right. Right. And who else? Well, and people who are potentially afraid of intimacy.
Yeah. Being too intimate with the casual sex partners. Right.
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[11:36] [Unknown] It only cares about ratings and reviews. We’d appreciate it. And your community will really
appreciate it. Thanks for listening. There is a group of people that neurodivergent people that

[11:55] [Phoebe] have issues with that type of closeness and we’ll break that down as to what that element is for
those individuals. And it’ll totally make sense. Then you have some people that have a kissing
phobia. And I’m going to ask you to pronounce it because I haven’t actually done that out loud yet.

[12:19] [Unknown] Philema phobia people. Yes. And then there’s just people that just simply want the rule period

[12:26] [Phoebe] for whatever reasons, right? That’s special to them and their partner. It makes them nervous.
They want to take, they want to move in a different direction. Whatever. It’s their rule.
They’ve decided on that rule. That’s their rule. That’s their rule. And just some of the reasons
and motivations behind the rule, there’s some psychology, some biology, cultural differences,

[12:51] [Unknown] and personal experiences surrounding kissing. Let’s get into the power of kissing. Yeah,

[12:59] [Ed] you and I are like big fans of kissing. Like we love kissing, making out, we even taught a class
on kissing techniques at one of our conferences that we were at because we love it so much. So much
button. Kissing is so good. Yes. It does establish this connection, this intimacy. And I kind of
spoke about that a little bit ago. And for us, it’s this like chemical spark. It like kicks things
off. From a biological standpoint, it releases oxytocin and neurochemicals. There’s this whole
four-play arousal precursor for sex. So it kind of gets the juices going both chemically, but also

[13:52] [Unknown] the mouth and the nether region. Other areas that get all stimulated and juicy. Yes.

[14:04] [Ed] And there’s another aspect of this, which is just pair bonding and nurturing. So that connection
that you have, especially with long-term partners, that release of the oxytocin on a regular basis
creates this bond, this almost a chemical, neurological bond with your partner.

[14:26] [Phoebe] Right. So I kind of understand the quote with that something I reserve special for my primary

[14:35] [Ed] partner. I get it. It kind of makes sense to me. Yeah. It’s very intimate. I mean, it does like

[14:41] [Phoebe] this. I don’t I said, kind of, it does. It does make sense to me. I got to researching as I do.
And I thought, all right, how many nerve endings are in the lips? It’s got to be way less than
the clitoris and penis because I’ve already researched that. Oh my gosh. To my shocking surprise,
lip sensitivity has about a million, a million different nerve endings.
Well, that’s it’s okay. So your lips are in the top three most sensitive parts of your body.
Okay. Lips, fingertips, and tongue. And I think your fingertips and your tongue are more sensitive
than your lips. Makes sense. Your clits not in there and your penis isn’t in there. Where do

[15:28] [Unknown] those fall? Way down on the list. And the the 8,000 nerve endings in the clitoris and

[15:37] [Ed] labias less than penis is about half of that. Now, these numbers are pseudo-scientific. They
haven’t really figured the exact quantity of nerves out. There’s some research that’s even
calling into question the 8,000 nerves in the clitoris. But relatively speaking, there’s a lot

[15:54] [Phoebe] more nerve endings in the lips and the mouth. So then my brain kind of goes to more sensitive,
more intimate, more stimulating, more stimulating. So I could see how that might be a little more
unsettling. And I will tell you why next because as a woman, I can lay there and have someone
penetrate me and just pretty much take a nap. Sure. You could imagine your someplace else.
I can imagine I’m somewhere else. You could be fucking me and I’m just like yawning, right? Especially

[16:40] [Ed] doggy style or something like that. You could be on your phone and they wouldn’t even know it.

[16:44] [Phoebe] No, because doggy does nothing for me. I actually have no pretty much no sensation in that position.
It provides no stimulation whatsoever. So the lips do and it’s it would be hard to fake a kiss,
right? If you’re kissing someone, right? And if you don’t want to kiss them back, you’ve got

[17:06] [Ed] deadpan face, dead lips, right? And it’s like pretty hard to fake a kiss. Kissing a fish or a dead

[17:14] [Unknown] person would be really weird. Someone would go in and they would stop immediately because you weren’t

[17:21] [Ed] kissing them back. Yeah, the nonverbal signals would be a dead giveaway. Right. So once again,

[17:30] [Unknown] more intimate with kissing, less intimate with sex. Right. Makes perfect sense. Okay. So

[17:41] [Phoebe] when you’re also kissing, we address the chemical and hormonal aspects that kick off and nurturing

[17:47] [Unknown] and the eyes. Yes. You get the eyes. If you’re connecting, yeah. That’s very intimate. Yeah,

[17:56] [Ed] you are literally in someone’s face. Like you can’t get any more in someone’s face than

[18:03] [Phoebe] kissing. Hence the whole get out of my face, right? People get incensed. You’re in my space.

[18:10] [Ed] Get out of my face. It’s very much. It’s about as in someone’s personal bubble as you can get.

[18:17] [Phoebe] Right. So we wouldn’t have that comment, that phrase in our culture. If it didn’t really
mean something, it’s an intimate space. Right. Our light bulbs going off everybody yet.

[18:33] [Ed] So one of the things that you run into with kissing, especially with new partners in the lifestyle,
is incompatibility with kissing styles. So I’ve had partners who were either too aggressive
or too distant, right? Like not into it enough or just the whole hard mouth, not really
moving their mouth kind of a kiss. So everybody kisses a little bit differently. Right. And
just like they have sex differently. Right. And some of those, and I’ll actually say,
kissing is a more complex interaction than sex because you can go harder, you know, slow fast
and you can move in kind of different angles, but your lips, like you can create shapes,
you can move your tongue. There’s breathing. There’s all many different lip biting. Yes.

[19:33] [Phoebe] There’s, you’re right. Way more techniques with kissing. Yeah. It’s a pretty complex series of

[19:40] [Ed] motions to move your lips together. And I’ve had my fair share of incompatible kissing

[19:48] [Phoebe] right people. Right. And the other thing that might make kissing
uncomfortable for you is that it tends to have this lead up to sex. Right. So there’s this
expectation that if I kiss you and we get hot and heavy and the juices start flowing,
that all of a sudden you think the next thing is sex. Or I get so hot and bothered that I might

[20:16] [Ed] not be able to resist wanting to go to that next step. And if I have another role which is no
penetrative sex, but I’m all worked up because of the kissing. Right. Then I might not,
I might, it might be rougher. It might be harder for me to hold back. Right. Right.

[20:36] [Phoebe] And then of course the intimacy and vulnerability of being in someone’s face and

[20:44] [Ed] looking in their eyes if you are. Yeah. There’s another aspect to this. And I’ll just come out and
say it, hygiene concerns. So bad breath, food, people have been drinking, smoking. So maybe you
hook up with a couple that smokes and you’re not really into smoking. You may not want to kiss them.
Right. Yeah. It’s not for everybody. Some people are a little more sensitive to those
smells and tastes. And just general hygiene. Right. Like how well are they taking care of

[21:23] [Phoebe] that they have their face six month cleaning? Do they have any cavities? Can you smell them?
Yeah. Yeah. All of that. And then if you’re a germaphobe or even if you’re not, I was actually kind

[21:37] [Ed] of shocked. We kind of sort of germaphobed for a second. Yeah. I did germaphobe up a little bit.

[21:45] [Phoebe] 80 million bacteria can be exchanged in a passionate kiss that lasts more than 10 seconds.

[21:53] [Ed] Yes. And to be clear, the human mouth is not a particularly bacteria-free environment to begin

[22:02] [Phoebe] with. No. It’s kind of a dirty place. No. So then I was like, holy shit. Okay. So if you
kissed 10 people at a party, put your face in five pussies and eight three cocks,
can you imagine the amount of bacteria in your mouth? It’s a lot of bacteria. Holy crap. So
now your body has all this foreign bacteria to fight off. And I was thinking, oh my god,
no wonder sometimes I don’t feel so great the next day. It wasn’t that I had too much to drink.
My body’s like, holy shit. What is all this bacteria in my body? Bacteriological warfare going on.
Yeah. And then don’t even get me started on the bacteria in your vagina and all the issues

[22:53] [Ed] that that might cause. Right. Transmitting the bacteria from your mouth to the vagina. Yeah.

[23:02] [Phoebe] It’s a thing. Okay. germaphobe gone. Can’t think about that. I think about the good times.
Shake it off. Shake it off. Cultural differences. Hello. Did we even think about that? No. And some

[23:16] [Unknown] cultures don’t recognize kissing interestingly enough. And now most cultures do hear in the United

[23:23] [Phoebe] States. But if you are from somewhere else and you’re living here, maybe you don’t. But it’s

[23:29] [Ed] so that the clear thing is it’s not a universal thing. Like not everyone believes in kissing.

[23:36] [Phoebe] So correct. Or the importance of kissing. Right. So the American Anthropophological Association
in 2015 did a study and found 45% of North American cultures do not kiss. Wow. Not even romantically

[23:54] [Ed] or sexually. So North America, that’s Canada all the way south to up to Central America.

[24:03] [Phoebe] Interesting. Right. I was like, that is almost half. It is almost half.
Really good at math. And the other reason was it’s just gross or unpleasant.
Right. Which kind of goes back to some of the differences of hygiene in different cultures.
Maybe they don’t have a good dental care. Right. They don’t get to get their teeth clean every
six months. Sure. That’s just not an option for them. It could be that the food that they eat is

[24:38] [Ed] just unpleasant to kiss because it’s so particularly strong. Yeah. It’s really maybe like
it’s got a lot of crews or a lot of spices and garlic. Who knows? Yeah. Right. It’s very

[24:50] [Phoebe] rich in flavor. And so you always have food breath. We mentioned this a little bit ago

[24:56] [Ed] about neurodivergent perspectives and kind of alternative forms of intimacy. So let’s talk about
how someone who is neurodivergent might be affected by kissing. Right. Most neurodivergent people

[25:13] [Phoebe] don’t like kissing and they prefer to express their affection and appreciation differently.
And some of the ways they like to do that is a caress on the face with fingers. You can caress
cheeks, lips and noses but not with the kiss, not making out. And then other areas of the body
are also exploratory. Right. Because our skin is highly sensitive. Right. So neck back of the neck
which I actually really love. And honestly, it’s almost as good as kissing because it gives me

[25:53] [Ed] goosebumps all over my body. Yeah. All the tingles. All the tingles. You know, the crook of the

[25:59] [Phoebe] arm back of the knees, spine, palms. So they like to focus on, you know, other sensual areas of

[26:06] [Ed] the body. Right. So if you really have to kiss, but you don’t want to kiss, lip to lip,

[26:12] [Phoebe] there are certainly other places that you could kiss. Right. So if you can’t kiss exactly what you
said to that guy’s quote. Right. No, no kissing on the lips means no, I’m out. I’m like, wow,
you could, you could kiss all over someone’s body. 98% of the rest of the body you could kiss.

[26:33] [Ed] Oh yeah. If you, if you didn’t kiss my lips, then kiss my butt. Oh my gosh. You can kiss the back
of my neck. Right. That too. For those of you that don’t want to opt for the face to face,
lip to lip kiss, there’s also something called the ocean kiss where you stand very close
to another partner’s face and breathe deeply without allowing your mouths to touch. So it’s almost

[27:05] [Unknown] a form of breath play. Right. And this, of course, works well if you’re comfortable with

[27:14] [Phoebe] being, you know, near someone who’s kind of essentially breathing on you. Right. And you don’t

[27:19] [Ed] have issues with, you know, breath odor. Right. So definitely breathment territory for this one.

[27:25] [Phoebe] So I could see when I’m kissing, I’m not, I’m aware of breath odor. I’m not aware of somebody
breathing on me. Right. But I will say we’re sleeping together and you’re turned towards me
and you’re breathing on me and I haven’t fallen asleep yet. Yes. That bugs me. Yeah, it’s like the wind

[27:45] [Unknown] in your ear. I’m like, what? What is that breeze? Oh, the fear of kissing. You know how to say this

[27:58] [Phoebe] philimaphobia. I think you said it better before. But I will actually maybe philimaphobia.

[28:06] [Ed] It’s maybe philimaphobia. Anyway, we’ll leave it at that. It’s the fear of germs, body odors, touch,

[28:14] [Phoebe] fear of intimacy and vulnerability. Sometimes it’s rooted in fear of rejection,
not being enough or disappointing or disgusting. People avoid it to prevent judgment, hurt and
rejection. And sometimes it’s an unaddressed trauma. Right. So people may be choosing to not kiss or

[28:34] [Ed] have a no kissing rule because they have some deep seated trauma that they’re trying to not spoil
the event. Right. And ruin the evening by dredging all of that up. I know. So here I was just

[28:48] [Phoebe] in somebody else’s shoes going, wow, you know, I had no idea this could be a thing. But I still
want to participate in swinging, but I can’t kiss anyone because I’ve got some unaddressed trauma.
So we can’t shame people like that because you never know what’s going on with them. You don’t
know they’re not bad. They’re not jealous. It’s not a red flag issue. They’re, I mean, what is this

[29:16] [Ed] the scarlet letter? Right. I know. Clearly, there’s more than one reason why people don’t have

[29:24] [Phoebe] or have a kissing rule. I mean, in a sense, I’m kind of judging the judges. And I feel bad for
that. I’m just passionate about educating people because I have been in this place like you,
so many times where I see something and I go, oh, me. And then I go, gosh, you know,
why do I feel like that? And I step out of my shoes and I do some research and I go, oh,
totally get it. Right. And then I can be more inclusive and work with that situation rather than

[29:56] [Unknown] put up the hand and go, me, right? Here’s why we sail on Virgin. It’s adults only. No kids screaming

[30:11] [Guest] at breakfast. No family buffet lines. Just champagne at noon. Late night pool parties and people
who actually want to be there. The vibe? Think boutique hotel that happens to float. Tattoo parlors,
drag brunch, restaurants you’d actually pay for on land. Plus, when you’re looking to connect with

[30:35] [Unknown] other couples who know how to have fun, let’s just say Virgin attracts a very specific type of
adventurous. No wonder bread cruisers here. Just your people. Here are some suggestions

[30:53] [Ed] that can help you through some of these situations. So instead of assigning blame or judgment
right away, let’s start with asking some questions. You don’t understand what their choice or
rule is. Find out why they have that rule. You’ll build a better connection with them and you’ll
have a better appreciation for what your boundaries are and what the possibilities are for the night.
It creates an inclusive attitude. So those diverse preferences and choices. And it doesn’t set
them up for feeling weird because you’re acting adversarial towards their choices. And remember that
there’s no universal right or wrong approach to kissing or not kissing or even how to play.
And it promotes this honest communication within the Swanger community, really trying to understand
how other people play and why they play the way that they do. And as a Swanger community,
we should continue to embrace diversity and personal freedom. And that’s the whole thing about
sex positivity. Everybody’s got a different thing. So we should try harder to try and understand

[32:09] [Unknown] what that thing is. Right. So how does somebody go about navigating someone else’s boundaries

[32:17] [Ed] and getting consent around the no kissing role? Well, first, negotiate those agreed upon boundaries.
So that conversation where you’re having an understanding about what rules they have,
you can say, well, then what is on the table or what are you into? What do you guys like to do?

[32:38] [Unknown] Yeah. And I would even say ask the question, what happens if I accidentally go for your

[32:46] [Phoebe] lips and I kiss you on the lips? Well, that’d be offensive because I’m really trying hard
to honor your rule. But I, you know, it is natural for me to want to go in for a kiss. Right.
So if I do, how do I, how do we, how do we navigate that in the moment? Would you, you know,
is that, it’s like a ruin things, you know, talk about it, right? Just be honest.

[33:10] [Ed] Absolutely. Ask about other types of sensory play. So what kinds of touching and what kinds of

[33:17] [Guest] contact are on the table and available? Yeah. And of course, what kinds of oral player are available?

[33:25] [Ed] You want a kiss? You want, clearly, you have an oral fixation of some sort. How else could that

[33:31] [Unknown] be satisfied? Right. Right. And get consent and then repeat back their wishes, of course.

[33:38] [Phoebe] Right. And then remember that swinging is not always about penetration or only about penetration.
Right. What is going to happen and say you want to experiment with just tossing out the rule,
how, how do you, how are you going to experiment with? I like how, how are you going to do this,
right? Right. And I would say interview the right couple. Talk about what you like and don’t like.
Pick a spot at a party that’s quiet. Go slow. Don’t, don’t go in for that epic make-out session.
And then again, ask them what they like, what they don’t like while you’re kissing. So make it kind
of fun. You know, make it playful or sexy or sensual. You know, you’re kissing and then you’re like,
did you like that? Is that okay? Is that okay? Would you like more? Right. That could be really hot
and really sexy. And you could also practice watching with one another. And I did this in the
beginning. I practiced watching you kiss somebody to just get desensitized or used to watching you
kiss somebody and experiencing those feelings. Right. We’re trying to just breathe through the

[35:06] [Unknown] feelings because I didn’t always know what they meant. I just knew it created a type of anxiety in me.

[35:15] [Phoebe] And we still have to get back to that story about our rule in the beginning and how we got around

[35:24] [Unknown] that. And what triggered me? Yes. So there was this time we were at a house party and it was having

[35:36] [Phoebe] this epic epic make-out session with this woman on the bed. They were just, oh my god. Like,
like, the world was ending and kissing was the only thing left on the planet. That’s what it

[35:51] [Ed] looked like to me. It was a lot of fun. And she was really into it and she was a very compatible

[36:00] [Phoebe] kisser for my style. Yeah. I still, to this day, can I remember it like it was yesterday? Me too.
So that was very triggering and I understand, I obviously understand now why, but I also had to

[36:24] [Unknown] process that and figure it out. And a lot of it was I was feeling very envious because I wasn’t

[36:32] [Phoebe] feeling that type of passion. I could see you having that type of passion. I wanted that for myself
as well. Right. We hadn’t got to that place of compulsion where I could just sit back and go,
oh, look at Ed go. God. Look at him. He’s just having the time of his life. I wasn’t there yet. I

[36:52] [Unknown] mean, we were what? Couple months in to the lifestyle. Yeah. Yeah. We were pretty, pretty new, pretty green

[37:00] [Phoebe] early on in our relationship a couple years in. So we hadn’t really solidified a lot of things.

[37:08] [Unknown] Right. Plus, if I remember you and her partner, the mister hadn’t quite hit it off yet. Yeah.

[37:18] [Ed] And the conversation was still a little awkward and off. So we got compatible, fast. And you guys

[37:27] [Unknown] were still catching up. Yes. So it’s a timing thing too. Right. So that, that felt awkward because

[37:38] [Phoebe] you guys were on the fast track that going to sex. And I was doing my slow warm up thing.
Right. As I always do. Right. Slow warmer. So we sat down and we talked about this and we figured
out all this stuff. And I said, okay, so next time because what am I supposed to do if I get

[38:02] [Unknown] triggered again, it’s going to happen. I know it is. And so I asked Ed to just put a limit,

[38:12] [Phoebe] consciously, just be aware that to check on me. Right. And to maybe come up for air. And it was
hard to put a time on that because I didn’t know what the time was. It wasn’t an arbitrary time.

[38:25] [Ed] It was just an awareness. Right. Yeah. And just check on me. Glance over everyone. Smile. See,

[38:32] [Phoebe] how things are going. See if my eyes are popping out of my head. And yeah. And you did do that.
And you would look at me. You’d give me eye contact. You’d have love all over your face. And you
sometimes you’d reach out to me and grab my hand. It squeeze it. And I’d say, I’m okay.
Or sometimes I come in for a kiss and kiss you as well. Sometimes I join in. And you know,
I kiss her. And then you two go back to kissing. And then I keep watch. And that way I kind of
felt like I was part of it. And that you guys were bringing me along at the same speed. Right.

[39:10] [Ed] Right. Yeah. And I think a lot of our early experiences with kind of the feelings of envy and
jealousy were really centered around being left out. Yeah. Not being at the same speed as what

[39:26] [Unknown] the rest of the room was. Right. And I think I think a lot of people don’t think about that.

[39:33] [Ed] And they don’t realize that their partners maybe not quite getting the same vibe that you are. And
that’s that’s something that all partners need to be better about, which is being aware of

[39:51] [Phoebe] kind of how well their partners doing. Right. And I will hear that from time to time in the room.
Women will express, oh, okay, I guess we’re going there now. Right. And so I already know that’s
what that means. And they’re like, he’s, you know, him and her, his, her husband is hot to
track with somebody else, but she’s not ready yet. Right. And she’s like, wow, that, you know,

[40:19] [Ed] the race car is left. You walked in the room, you pulled the condom out and you’re gone.

[40:25] [Phoebe] You’re off to the races. Yeah. Right. So yeah, that, that was a lot of pressure in the beginning.
That speed one, one person being way more comfortable and getting around the track faster than,

[40:40] [Unknown] than than me. Yeah. And so that, that was sort of our no-kissing rule, but it was more about

[40:48] [Ed] the intimacy that was involved with kissing and the timing of everything and just making sure that
people weren’t being left out. And we’ve had that same sense with full swap before too.
Oh, yeah. Where, you know, one partner is just prayer and a go. Yes. And, you know, you’re still

[41:12] [Unknown] doing the, the preliminaries, the foreplay part. Right. That’s challenging to, to get through,

[41:19] [Ed] especially when you’re brand new to the lifestyle, where you, you don’t quite have your
compulsion feelings ready. You know, you’re, you’re not there yet. And, and even after you have
a lot of experience, sometimes you will have evenings where you’re just not feeling it. Right.

[41:39] [Unknown] And you’re like, not tonight. Yep. So the beginning of this, where we’re listing off all of those
negative comments about jealousy and red flags, there’s so much more to it than that. Yeah. So much
more to it than that. Yeah. And I’m just going to leave it at that because if this could easily
turn into an internet rant about swinger groups on the internet. Yeah. And we obviously worked

[42:14] [Phoebe] through it. Yeah. We, we had conversations about it for sure. We didn’t offend anybody. We weren’t
wearing the scarlet letter in the swinger community. We weren’t, you know, we, it was, we worked

[42:28] [Ed] around it. We figured, we figured out our own path for it. And we didn’t make it anybody else’s

[42:33] [Unknown] problem. It was, it was our thing to work out. And, you know, we didn’t create any drama or,

[42:39] [Phoebe] you know, a lot of people like to throw around the word drama, whatever that is. It’s a, it’s a
discussion between two people. If you don’t like hearing personal discussions between two people

[42:49] [Unknown] and then step away. It’s not a big deal. It happens all the time. Yeah. So yeah, it, um, I think there
are a lot of missed opportunities. And I’m hoping that this helped other people gain some insight
as to all the other great options that you might be missing out on when you encounter a couple that
has a no swing over or well, well, that would be a totally different thing if they had no swing

[43:19] [Phoebe] or roll. That would, yeah, that would be that would be a no go, but I know kissing well, you know,

[43:27] [Unknown] yeah, it’s not. Remember the journey of exploring intimate connections and understanding diverse

[43:36] [Ed] perspectives is an ongoing process. By embracing empathy, respect and open-mindedness, we can foster
a more inclusive and understanding environment for all individuals, regardless of their choices,

[43:51] [Unknown] regarding kissing in the swing or lifestyle. Until next time.
Keep learning, keep growing and keep having fun. Oh, one last thing before you go. If this

[44:34] [Ed] episode helped you in any way, the single best thing you can do to support the show is leaving a
rating and review. It takes 60 seconds and helps new people find us when they’re searching for

[44:46] [Unknown] a relationship education. And we’ve made it easy. Visit SwingerUniversity.com forward slash
review. All the instructions are there. Thank you for being part of this community. We’ll see you

[45:01] [Ed] again soon.