Welcome to Swinger University. I’m Ed. And I’m Phoebe. Today we are super excited to be interviewing Alex Liu, writer, director, narrator, and protagonist in a documentary called A Sexplanation, exploring issues concerning sexual stigma, shame, pleasure, and pride in the context of debates over comprehensive sex education.

And he had four film festival nominations and won nine film festivals. From 2021 to 2022. Alex’s work explores taboo topics like sex and drugs to deepen our understanding of science, morality, and living meaningfully. A former health reporter for CNN, Nova Science Now, and NPR, his debut feature documentary A Sexplanation was named a New York Times Critics Pick and won the 2023 American Association of Sexuality Educators, Counselors, and Therapists, audio visual.

award and LGBTQ plus journalists excellence in documentary award.

And now we’re going to recap a little bit of a sexplanation. Go for it. For those who have not watched this documentary, shame on you. Although we’re talking about not shaming people, but absolutely go see this. It’s a comedic and universal search for love, connection, and self acceptance. It addresses sex education, or the lack thereof, and shame about how sex and how we identify.

I’m going to re reread that. Addresses sex education, and lack thereof, and shame about sex, and how we identify. There’s interviews with psychologists, scientists, therapists, and a Jesuit priest threw them all in there. It sounds like a joke, actually. A therapist, a scientist, and a Jesuit priest walk into a bar.

The overarching theme of trying to get people to critically think about sexuality and that sex is fun, pleasurable, and it’s okay to talk about it. Alex, to us, you are a champion for fighting sexual stigma, shame, and helping people embrace pleasure. The more people like you that can bring these topics to light is a win for everyone.

We try to do the same for SwingerU. Community by addressing these same issues and your documentary deeply resonated with us. So thank you so much for being here So

That was an amazing introduction. I really appreciate the time.

tell us a little bit about yourself and your background and how you went to go from studying molecular biology Toxology to reporter and filmmaker.

Yeah, so, so I think that the kind of through line of my life, uh, you know, the, the, the, it’s really been trying to understand and grapple with my sexuality, identify as a gay man. And, and I think for, you know, I grew up in the 90s, 80s, 90s, 2000s, and, and, you know, the depictions there were, were, you know, if I heard about gay people would be through the lens of HIV AIDS. Um, you know, it was not really, uh, it’s hard to believe when you think about how taboo being gay was, isn’t it? Because it’s changed so rapidly,

Yeah, right,

was nothing out there, you know, I was just, you know, you know, barely keeping my head around water trying to understand, uh, you know, my same sex attraction and, and, and the one place that, you know, I, definitely the church was not helpful, it was, it was harmful. And, um, the one place that I found that actually started to help me make sense of things were those sciences, specifically the biological sciences. So, spent a lot of time kind of trying to figure this out and it became clear, like, okay, like, I, I feel much better because I realized, like, not only have I never thought critically about any of these morals, ideas, taboos, uh, but most of the people around me have never thought about it.

And, and, and as you dig more and more, you realize that, um, you know, almost every taboo topic, sex, drugs, everything, it, it, it’s, it’s much of good information has been kept from us for, for various reasons. And, um, The more and more I understood that, the kind of angrier I got.

right, right

I think that I’ve just reached a point where I was like, well, I’m, I’m complaining all the time about why isn’t there a good sex education out there?

Why isn’t there a good drug education out there? To the point where I was like, well, if no one else is doing it, let’s see what I can do. And, and so I started this path of science reporting, health reporting, starting putting stuff on YouTube, and, and that led me to, to making this documentary, to making this explanation, yeah.

That’s that’s fantastic. It’s funny as you were describing that we had A similar feeling when we started talking about doing the podcast where it was like, yeah, there’s lots of podcasts out there that talk about swingers and swinger parties and how cool it was to have sex with multiple people and It’s the hit thing and everybody should do it and so much of it didn’t resonate with us And it wasn’t from kind of like an education standpoint.

Sure. It was informative, but it wasn’t really Digging into some of these deeper topics. And so yeah, like You If nobody else is going to do it, I guess we’re going to start doing it.

That’s great. Yeah, I fully feel like that. That’s the beauty. I mean, the issues with, with media today, but that’s one of the beautiful parts is that you can kind of do yourself now.

Yeah. Yeah. And then what are some of the challenges that you face when you’re working on this film? Because you, I mean, you really had to switch gears. I mean, I’m sure there was a massive learning curve and.

yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I was trained in straight journalism, right? Which is kind of dying right now. Which is, you know, um, um, be as objective as possible, be as unbiased as possible. you know, it’s a straight, factual story, you know.

Right.

put yourself in it, and I think that’s good advice, uh, for most reporting, you know. Uh, and whenever I would pitch stories around sex education, drug education, I think if I were to pitch them now, they would probably be taken by a lot of these publications. But back then, they were like, oh, we don’t want, we don’t want to talk about these things. And so,

Right.

I found myself just increasingly frustrated and I think for a good good reason, you know I I was probably more on the activist side of things than the journalism side of things to the way I was pitching these stories And so I I was like, well, I’m just gonna do it myself, you know And and and I think the biggest challenge for me in doing all this was Really trying to process why I was doing this

Oh,

Oh Instinct was to come to a place of preachiness of anger.

I’m gonna tell the world why they’re wrong and why I’m right

right. Right.

not a pleasurable experience to watch right? No one

Yeah. Yeah.

an incredibly didactic You know, I was almost becoming like the the mirror image of the people I I did not like that I was railing against

Yeah. Yes.

of the film are a little too hot in that sense there They’re not Um, and, and it is very much, uh, uh, uh, uh, you know, me talking down to the world, and I think it

Right.

therapy, it took bringing in, you know, other, other who could help me see what I wasn’t able to see at the time, but also just talking to a lot of people, you know, I think the biggest takeaway from this whole process is because you’re forced to sit and listen to people who you disagree with, In a way you never would maybe in an actual one on one human interaction because my instinct would be to like immediately start a fight or to not listen to a complete thought

Right. Right.

realize more and more like oh like like the only way to To, uh, get the respect that you want is to respect others, to listen to

Yeah.

to, to, to, even if you disagree, to really, uh, um, uh, respect their point of view, uh, that they come to it honestly.

For the most part, you know, you know, there are people, bad actors, bad faith actors, for sure, but for the most part, I think most people are, just trying to figure out the best they know with the tools they’ve been given how to figure these things out. So,

Right.

I’m locking in very quickly, I think also. Um, um, that, that wow, like actually this is much more interesting of a film of a documentary piece of work. Um, if it is more about me, like trying to let go of my agenda and approach it from a much more blank slate point of view. And that’s when we started doing that, that’s when it really clicked in.

Nice.

and, and that’s when I started to kind of really dig back about like, oh, well, like. You know, you put on a front, a shield for so long when you’re gay like that, and you’re ready to attack at any moment, and you’re ready, and you contort yourself into how you think people, uh, need to see you in order to be comfortable with you, and, and all those little things, like when you put a camera in front of you, it’s, it’s a total mindfuck, right?

So, so, uh, Just keep processing all of that has been, has been a, the best gift in doing this is, is, is, I’m, I’m doing a lot of talking now, but that’s about the, the, uh, the gift of, of, of really listening and respecting where, where people come from and starting from there before anywhere else. Yeah.

And I, I, I think I, I’m, I’m, I’m getting what you’re saying where, and I can relate to when you, you get emotionally charged about something and it’s kind of like an email and they always say, you know, rewrite it three times before you send it, sleep on it. Right. Where there’s that process of you’re like, you’re just going through it and you’re asking questions and you’re living it and you’re.

Lashing out and then there’s, but there’s periods of reflectiveness and then you, you start to ask the why, like you said, you start asking why, you know, what, what is it about these people that aren’t getting it? What, what, what, what, or, or what is their perspective so that I can understand because that’s what the, usually the reason the hardest part.

Thing I have with is what, what, what is their thought process? Why, why didn’t, can’t they see what I see? And so that empathy standpoint from it, stepping in their shoes. So remembering back through the, the, uh, documentary, there was the one scene where you were, you were interviewing the Congressman, the Senator, I can’t remember what his exact title was and what was, was that filmed before or after you came to this realization

It was, it was after, although, although maybe in the middle of it, you know, I think that was actually of so, so we spoke to a very conservative Utah state center. His name is Todd, Todd Wheeler and, and, and Todd Weiler. Yeah. Uh, and, and he, um, uh, you know, he’s, he was kind of a name for himself by trying to, uh, declare pornography a public health crisis in the state

right, right.

so his, um, You know, and so I was ready, I think, to go to battle with him. Uh, but by the time I was at the process of, you know, I, I, uh, meeting with him, um, I was kind of coming to the realization at that point, like, what if instead of this being, like, a moment where I take him down, which was my initial instinct,

Right.

I try to find a point of common agreement?

Yes.

that? Like, let’s start from there, and then we can talk about our disagreements. Um, and I think that was the first interview where we have some great moments, you know, where I’m talking about porn with him, like, you know, like, and, and, you know, it was very clear, very obvious, like, we’re never gonna agree.

Right. Yes.

but it doesn’t mean he’s not like, uh, a human being who’s, who’s coming about. I mean, I mean, I can be pretty cynical of politics. Um, but, but I, I genuinely, for the most part, believe based on his upbringing, based on, uh, you know, how, how he grew up, uh, the state of Utah, that, that he’s coming to this, to this, uh, And he was willing to engage with me in a way that I didn’t think, uh, uh, that I wasn’t willing to engage with him,

Right. Right.

that was a great deal. I was like, okay, you know what? Actually, this might be something. And that’s one of my favorite interviews because, because we actually, I think, come to a point of at least respecting our humanity, if not our points of view. Yeah.

Yeah, and I, I think I saw it really as a moment where you, you really do start to understand that everybody comes to wherever they are today through a different path. And you know, people come into swinging through different paths. People come into their own sexuality through different paths. It was, it was nice because you got to see that other perspective.

It would have actually been a very boring movie. It wouldn’t have been, but it would have been a boring movie if everybody just agreed with you, right? Like you wouldn’t have had a point of contention or the fact that, yeah, there’s, you know, there’s, there’s quote a villain in the story, which is, Everybody’s got a different opinion on it.

Yeah.

and, and we all have to come to some kind of a, a level understanding of, Hey, you know, we might be able to cut back on, uh, teenage pregnancy if we had a better understanding of how actual pregnancy works, you know?

Right. Imagine the thought. Yeah.

Right. Yeah, and the, the, the other part I really liked about the film, or there are many parts, but that, that, that, that sex is a huge form of expression that, and it’s so critically important to discovering who we are.

And we look all around us and sex is everywhere. It’s in advertising. It’s all over Instagram for crying out loud, even though they keep trying to, to nerf our site, um, and, and take things down. And as, as educators. What? Yeah. Yeah.

I had to fi,

Yeah.

had, I had to fight them. Yeah. I was like, no, this is not pornography. Yeah.

Oh my God, every day, every day. So yeah, I mean, and you know, and then, but then on other, there’s other aspects where this sex and, and expression is coming out. I mean, they’ve got lubes and vibrators on the top shelf at Walmart now and, and so there’s just this, this struggle with, with being able to come out and express ourselves and, and, but then shed that shame and, um, In the lifestyle, we, we are starting to see a change in the last 10 years where more men are coming out as bisexual and feeling that freedom to express themselves in that environment.

And I love that. And I want to talk a little bit more about that in a bit, but that’s some of the, the, the changes that we are seeing. But then yet. With this education, we just are so far behind and which is why people are turning to porn to educate themselves and the communities I think are, are, are huge and really important to all of us, which I also want to talk about the LGBTQ community as well in a second.

But I also want to talk about like, Two things that you did in the movie that I thought were really, really challenging was one, coming out to your parents, and then, oh my god, masturbating in front of people for science. I was like, you are so brave!

Or stupid, or stupid, isn’t it? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, um, that was one of the first shots we did, actually,

What?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that was one of the first things we did. It was dumping off the deep end for sure. Um, yeah, and it’s, you know, I think, It’s, it’s the, the least sexy environment you can think of.

Oh yeah. Right.

even if you’re by yourself, but, but the added pressure of having a film crew, making sure you achieve orgasm in 10 minutes, it has to be in 10 minutes.

Wow.

yeah, cause MRI, cause MRI time is expensive. Um,

That’s right.

uh, yeah, they, they, they. But the, you know, the takeaway from that is that it’s kind of crazy how important sex is to all of our lives. Um, you know, I think in many ways it is, uh, some of the most meaningful and definitely pleasurable experiences you can have, spiritual in many ways.

Yeah. Right.

there’s no money to study it, you know, like,

Right.

you know, the study we’re doing in this case was just trying to understand how the genitals in the brain are connected.

Like they just don’t know how at all. They know a lot about every other body part, but they skip over the genitals when they do these studies. And so Um, you know, it is like in the film, it’s, we have an embryonic understanding of, of just the basic biology of, of sex and sexuality. And so, um, yeah, the, the, uh, uh, the, the process was, Terrifying, for sure. Um, uh, And, and my, my, my only note to them was that they should provide silicone lube instead of water based, because it is,

yes. Yes.

yes, it’s,

My

get that it’s way, way harder to clean, but that was the biggest challenge, I think, for sure. Um,

God.

you just, you know, I, I think, um, before and after that, you know, if you can do that, the rest in terms of

Oh,

aspect, I think is nothing really comes close. So, yeah, yeah, quite literally. And so, and so it’s, it’s, it was, um, yeah, it was, it was great to do my, my part for science. Yeah, yeah, for

Right. Right. Right. And so then when, when you came out to your parents, what was the hardest part? Was it the, their, their feelings being concerned for their feelings and how they process the information? What, what was it?

I mean my dad’s reaction, which I kind of expected, was of what I did not expect. Uh, I’ve only seen him cry twice, once when his dog died and once when I came out to him. Um, and, and it was a like, I don’t know what this means, I’m very scared, but I’m always here for you, like I’m always here for you. Um, but I do find the idea of two men being intimate, like, just disgusting.

Oh,

where we started from.

yeah.

you know, 20 plus years later, uh, we’re talking about my masturbation habits and of, uh, a movie that’s been released around the world. Right.

Right.

so that’s just my one thing to say, like, it can, it’s possible.

It takes two to tango, you know, both people have to want to, to work on that relationship.

Right.

but, but you know, the fear, I think any kid in the nineties would have is, is, you know, the, you know, what does it mean? Are you going to be able to. Be part of the family anymore. And,

Right. Yeah. Right.

huge parts of myself in order to still fit in? And, and I think. Thankfully like, you know, I, I probably have a little too much bitterness at current, you know, Gen Zers who don’t have to go through that. Who had boyfriends or girlfriends in middle school. Um, but, but, but you know.

I’m mostly, mostly happy that that, that’s the case now. Um, but yeah, yeah, you know, you, you, you know, it’s, if, if, if you take the Brené Brown definition of, of shame, which is that you just don’t, you know, Don’t belong for who you are. That’s the ultimate, that’s the ultimate fear that I had.

You don’t belong for who you are. Was that what she said?

Yeah. Rather than something like guilt or embarrassment, which is like, you’ve done something wrong, you’ve done something wrong,

Yeah.

core, uh, aspect of shame, I think, is that you don’t belong, you don’t fit in. You, you, you’re

Yeah.

and, and, and for something you can’t control.

Yeah.

so, so that’s just, I mean, and, and. It’s, you know, sometimes I will take the moment to think about how scary that was.

Yeah.

I, I, you know, 17 years old, I developed a case of the shingles because I was just

Wow.

stressed out, you know, it was such a horrible time. and I wouldn’t wish that on anyone. So, so it’s, it’s been something that, you know, I, I think, Only since making this film have I truly fully processed and people often ask me like does that mean you’re cured of your shame?

Like do you, are you, do you no

Oh. Yeah.

a deep part of my imprinting, you know,

Right.

feel shame,

Right.

But I’m able to process it much faster. I’m able to understand it much faster. I’m able to, I have the tools now that I can work through it,

Right. Yeah.

control my life. Whereas in the past it, it, it, it was, um, you know, uh, I, I, you know, I considered suicide because I just didn’t know how to deal with this thing that, um, just so overran every aspect of my being.

Gosh. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I, um, was thinking about the The Swinger community and people that have come out, um, largely most people do not. The people that do come out usually come out to their, to their kids only because their kids basically know. The kids are smart, right? Right, they pick up on it. They stress about it and their kids are like, oh.

We’ve known years. What are you talking about? Whatever. Finally, thanks. Now we can talk about it, you know? And, but we also have had people come out to their parents and lost their whole family, like aunts, uncles, like everybody.

I mean, in a way, I think, you know, coming out as, as, you know, uh, non monogamous, however you want to frame it, like, that, to me, is, now, is much more challenging than coming out as gay, because, well, for whatever, you know, for, I have complicated feelings about this, but it’s like, you can come out as gay, but you can still fit into the, the monogamous marriage,

Right, right.

know,

The patriarchy still fits. Right.

right, it still fits and it doesn’t mean anything, right?

Yeah.

even though probably gay people are some of the most non monogamous people in the world. Uh, you know, um, but I totally, I’m actually kind of curious, you know, like, like, do you feel Do you feel like that it’s something that you want to come out about? Like, does it, does it, does it, you know, in a way that like, I could, I just couldn’t hide being gay, right.

But

Yeah. Yeah.

hide being non monogamous, you know? And so, and so is that something that, that, you know, you feel, it does feel like a thing, like this kind of barriers that you’re trying to overcome?

Yeah. It’s interesting. So you, we. We sort of came out, uh, when we released our faces publicly, um, on YouTube, uh, October, 2022. No, it was 2020. Anyway, because we’ve been doing the podcast. And you know, the nice thing about podcasts is they’re completely anonymous, right? It’s just this disembodied voices coming through the speakers, right?

It’s like radio versus tv, and. We, we actually felt very disingenuous by not showing our faces. We’re supposed to be de stigmatizing

Uh huh.

swinging, right? We’re it’s okay to be swingers and yet we’re hiding behind microphones.

Yeah. Hmm.

us, we came to a point where we’re like, okay, there are challenges here. We don’t know what this is going to mean for our jobs or.

uh, I

You know people coming forward with it And we were like well, okay, we checked for the morality clauses in our employment. They didn’t exist So we’re like, okay We’re good there like they can’t legally fire us because of that But we had no idea who was going to stumble across Our youtube channel and our social media and see our faces

Yeah.

there was this kind of fear of coming out, but we also kind of felt empowered by doing it to just say You know what?

Screw it. We’re just, we’re just going to do it and we’re going to see what happens. And ironically, nothing. Yeah. It’s been crickets. I mean, in a couple of different ways, it was, it was kind of,

that’s good to hear. Cause

yeah.

mean, I get a little nervous for you too, but you know, it is, it’s that’s the hard one for people to process. That is definitely a hard one. I think.

Yeah. And so far, knock on wood, we’ve, we’ve had a few. kind of spicy comments on YouTube, um, about the lifestyle and whatnot. But for the most part, it’s actually been really positive for us. Now, we know as, you know, if we ever become internet famous and we really blow up, that could get, that’s going to get worse, right?

The troubles all come out at that point. Yeah. But, uh, It’s been, it’s been kind of liberating because we’re, we’re able to express ourselves openly, at least in some parts. Now, we haven’t come out to our family. Um, our family doesn’t know about our, our secret, you know, lifestyle and all of that. The reason I haven’t is that, that, that I know for, for a fact it would cause my, my mother great pain and I’m not interested in inflicting a lot of pain.

I mean, for what point? I mean, she’s She’s, you know, what, in her 90s and so what, what, it would be so traumatic for her, uh, that I just thought, you know, I, I just don’t want to inflict that. There really is no reason for it. Now, some people who are polyamorous, it, it does become necessary at some point because they’re involving, um, different, they’re, they’re melding families together and so it gets.

difficult to hide and that is, that is just who they are. They innately, uh, want to be with more than one person. It’s, it’s, it’s how they feel best. Um, and so though in those situations, a lot of polyamorous people do come out. Um, but yeah, we’ve, we, we haven’t, we have not done that. What’s also good is there are some great organizations out there, the Woodhull Freedom Foundation.

And then there’s the Open and Open is in San Francisco, based in San Francisco. They’re, they’re doing things a lot on the, um, the legislative side, changing language and for benefits, um, changing language for, for businesses so that you can’t, you can’t be discriminated against for, you know, not being, um,

hmm.

So that’s really promising. And hopefully we’ll, we’ll be working with them and doing some things for them as well. Yeah. It’s, it’s interesting because they’re, You kind of pointed this out. There’s, there’s so many parallels between the LGBTQ community and kind of the, the path and journey that that community and the social stigma around it has gone through and kind of where they are now,

Mm hmm.

not to equate the two.

But sort of there’s some parallels though, for sure, with the lifestyle community and that, you know, there’s social stigma involved in this, there’s a preconceived concept of this is what a relationship is supposed to be, you know, and both communities are still struggling with that to, to a large degree.

Um, that I guess the one. Thing that we have to our favor is it’s kind of a secret and we can kind of do it and there’s something kind of Fun about it being a secret taboo thing,

There is that, for

right?

That can definitely be a turn on. I get, I get that.

Right, but but I could see like you couldn’t go out with your partner You know 20 years ago in public without I mean potentially life threatening Consequences, but you know, we could go out on a double date with another couple and everybody’s like, oh look, they’re friends You

Yeah. yeah, totally. I’m curious, do you feel like that your relationship improved once you started swinging? Like, do you feel like it was, uh, it brought you closer in any way? Like, because that’s the one thing I think about when I think of polyamory, non monogamy, like, you just have to be better communicators.

Like, that’s just kind of, yeah, and that, and that opens, great for all aspects of a

Yeah,

Yeah. Uh

expression has improved because we had to talk about things. I think our communication was forced to improve because you got to talk about this stuff because if you just internalize it, it’s just going to eat you up and, and that deprogramming from your traditional upbringing, your religious upbringing, whatever you came from, you got to get that out.

Um, and you have to have that conversation. So we used to spend long periods of time at night, just, just talking about stuff and going through stuff. So, yeah, I think it’s helped us. It’s, it’s one of the big reasons why we say swinging will absolutely break, uh, a fragile marriage.

Yeah.

it is not one of those things and you could say the same thing for any kind of non monogamy.

You know, if, if, if you were, let’s say dating multiple people and one of them started to get really attached and you were like, yeah, I want to keep dating on the side. I mean, that like, that like breaks the whole thing apart. So yeah, absolutely. It, um, it either, it either forces the change or it forces you to change.

Yeah. That, that’s I love that, you know, that’s the kind of what I was thinking with the movie. What it forced me to talk about a lot of things that I had never talked about.

Yeah. Yeah.

and with people, I, you know, I, I have my creative partner, uh, Leo Neri, who was a co writer, you know, basically it’s both of our movies.

Nice.

you know, and we had just so many endless conversations that I never thought I’d ever have a very deep about tons of shame and shameful experiences that, you know, and, and, and coming out, I’m like, Oh, like, What if I just kept this to myself my entire life, you

Right.

and just let it eat me up inside and never sharing this with anyone else? and that’s, you know, what I hope the movie can do is that it’s a nice kind of way to break the ice with someone. Some of the best responses we’ve gotten are like, We watched your movie and I was pausing it every ten minutes to talk

Yeah.

what, what I was seeing with my partner of 50 years, and we had conversations we never had before.

And that to me just is like, Oh my God, like, like, if that’s all that comes out of this movie, that, that, that, then I just, I can’t, I, it blows my mind because all I really want. You know, the,

Nice.

the, the, it’s tough, it’s hard, it’s, it’s painful, but, um, you know, know, pointing a light at any of the shame is the best kind of disinfectant.

So, so that’s, that’s, that’s what the goal was. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. So what would you say is your most rewarding aspect of producing that film and starring in that film and the whole thing, the project? What was the most rewarding piece of that?

I mean, honestly, it’s kind of, I can’t, what I just said, like, I can’t believe, you know, we, we made a movie that we, we were hoping so bad that at least it would be entertaining. At least it would, it would bring light and help people think like, you know, that, that if I’m vulnerable enough that I could get someone to, think a little bit more about their life, you know, like little moments that maybe they had never thought much about. Um, But the outpouring of people who, who, you know, said like, I am now closer to my significant other after watching your film. I’ve now had a conversation with my parents I never thought I would have.

Nice. Hmm.

that, know, that, that I never thought was possible. But that to me, I, I, cause I think I do think like, um, you know, there are no easy, simple answers or no silver bullets.

And I think that, you know, Change, the change you want to see comes baby step at a time with a million little baby steps from a

Yeah.

interactions

Yeah. Yeah.

to think that maybe, maybe we moved people a little bit in the right

Yes.

just been so rewarding because, um, This movie’s made, I mean, it’s pieced together with, like, Elmer’s glue and scotch tape, and so, so the idea that this little idea that we had could actually spark conversations, um, that I believe need to be had, I, I, I mean, I just get very overwhelmed with gratitude that anyone connected, you know.

That’s awesome I want to I want to talk about the lgbtq community and what it means to you What does the community? Do for you, how does it make you feel? How important is that community to you?

it’s the first time I ever felt normal, you know. You know, I

Yeah

it’s, it’s, um, you know. You know, there’s something about, although I wonder now how different it is because we’re all so fragmented now. Um, in some ways it’s good in that you can really find your specific community much more easily.

Right

but when I was coming out, you know, late 90s, early 2000s, Um, there was only one place and all the queers went there, you know, so it was overwhelming and scary, uh, at first, um, but you really get to meet, uh, and feel a sense of community with a large group of people, um, and, and, you know, like, I don’t, I don’t know if that, that exists as much as it used to, you know, common spaces

Right. Yeah, right

you know, you know, you know, Butch lesbians, you know, drag queens all in the same space kind of talking and, and, you know, and, and having disagreements and having seeing, seeing, you know, you know, you know, I moved from daddies to, you know, like to lipstick lesbians, all of it, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s all, it was, it was such a, a beautiful experience for me in, in, you know, terrifying, of course, at first. Um, but, but to think, you know, like, um, Oh, this idea I had of being normal or craving to be normal, maybe wasn’t as important as I made it out to be. And I think the best distinction I’ve come to is like, you know, is typical? Who has the stereotypical sexuality? You know, all of us have something that’s a little atypical and that’s normal.

And I think that’s the best, best part of being in that community taught me is that, um, You know, the only thing we have in common is that we all understand what it means to be different. Um, and so that’s been a really, uh, great message I think that I’ve carried forward is that, that, that, that, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s beautiful to be different.

And, and it, and it really does you, um, that. The closest you can come to being your authentic self is the closest you can come to, to, uh, uh, you know, if I may be simple, some sort of spiritual otherness, know, God, if you want to call it that, um, because it’s, it’s, um, it’s hard, but when you’re, when you’re free, it’s, there’s no better feeling.

Yeah Yeah And and We, we’ve, we’re starting to find that more in the the ethical non monogamy community. You’ve got different, uh, aspects of the community. You’ve got, um, you know, the part of the community that really just wants to party and have a good time and hee hee, you know, we see everybody naked and we’re watching naked porn live.

Oh hoo, that’s really cool. Let’s, let’s, you know, throw down on a bed and get busy, right? And it’s fun and there’s a lot of excitement to that and the novelty is great and wonderful. And then, but then over time, Um, you know, what seems to happen at least for us is that we, we really are focusing on the community aspect of the, the people that support system because what we keep hearing over and over time and time again is that, um, those are the people that really rally around you for, for vanilla things like a parent dies and those are the people that show up first.

Right.

I think we’re tribal beings, you know,

Yeah.

now the way we live in these, like, you know, this, this, you know, quote unquote nuclear family, I don’t think that’s healthy. Like,

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Mhm.

community, like, I have so many different friends. Um, some of them I’ve slept with, some of them I haven’t, some of, you know, I still maintain sexual relationships with, some of them, you know, it’s, it’s this wide spectrum, it’s not a, like, either or, this binary way of thinking, and I think, um, you know, the gay community has, it really does, in many ways, you see the spectrum, um, and that helps you understand that you are not one or the other, you are also on a, the spectrum of all different, you know, all different axes, um, um, And it changes over time, and, and, uh, and to be just connected and present to that, and, uh, to always question the rules around that, and that’s been a fun way to live life, versus, uh, um, you know, just sticking to, to, to one recipe.

Yeah, and that, that, that right there, what you were saying right there, that’s that overarching theme that we kept resonating with, because that’s what the, the community, Um, that we’re part of is like where you’ve, you’ve get that sense of freedom to, to express who you are, to discover things about yourself and to be okay with redefining your sexuality as things, as change things, things change.

And as you discover new things, yeah. And we’ve just been to, we had another interview today and we had a, a, a meet and greet last night and the, the people in those communities were saying the same thing and, and, and I love it. I just, I can’t not be with those, those open minded individuals, because if I wasn’t, I would probably shrivel up and die.

Cause I

we could all use a little bit more of in our lives. And, and,

agree.

makes sense. A lot of sense to me.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, I’m gonna take a little break here. I want to see where we’re at with our outline.

Yeah. Yeah.

Um, some of the stuff we’ve already covered, so coming out we’ve already tried that. Um, oh, do you want to, anything else? Do you want to, do you want to go straight to consent or do you think there’s some other stuff you want to talk about?

Oh, yeah, yeah. . Um

hm. Yeah, let’s, let’s jump to that. Would consent or do you wanna do, um, yeah, well we could talk a little bit about why by males in the community. I said I was gonna talk about it and I Yeah, that’s true. We should talk about it. ’cause we did. You, we, I set out, we tease them. I did tease them. We gotta give them, we gotta give them something if we tease them about it.

Tease, follow through. Um, it, it’s interesting ’cause you’ve been describing how the, the, the gay communities. Fairly fluid in terms of like sexuality, um, kinks, um, and, and even partners, right? Like I I’ve heard stories. I haven’t actually been in that community, but, but I’ve had a number of friends who were in the community and heard stories about, you know, There’s some, there’s some non monogamy going in there and, and it’s, it’s actually kind of embraced, right?

Um, So what’s interesting with that is in, in the swinger community, traditionally, it’s been very anti bisexual male. Um, it, there’s a huge, huge stigma with it. You, for the longest time,

Oh,

could not put that on your profile. Right. If you did, yeah, that was like the, that was like the scarlet letter. You would never put that on your profile openly.

Right. Right. And I, I, I have theories, right? Like I have a whole bunch of theories about that, but I think a lot of it has to do with, you know, The traditional definition of masculinity and being, being bi, of course, is you’re not, you’re not a real man, right? And there’s, it’s interesting, there’s even some pushback on the term bisexuality in general.

And that, well, you know, look, just admit you’re gay. It’s like,

Oh,

there’s, there is no bi.

that. I, I, I’ve been part of that, you know, uh, you know, in my earlier years of shaming bisexual men for just being like, you know, you’re just, you’re, this is your, because I did it, right? This is your step to, to

Yeah.

gay.

Yeah.

admit it.

You’re coping, right? Yeah. Yeah. So it’s interesting because in the last four or five years, we have noticed a pretty interesting shift in the community. There are more and more, uh, podcasters and public facing people who are coming out about their bisexuality and it’s slowly starting to kind of erode that, that wall.

And we were on a bliss cruise, a swinger cruise a few years ago, and there was a. Bisexual couple right there on a bed men. And the irony of course, is that bisexual women are totally accepted because that’s the classic definition of, you know, you know, that’s the porn,

Yeah.

Like. Ooh, look, the lesbians are going at it, right?

Like this was a situation where there were two men on a bed actually engaged in some form of sexual interaction right there in a public play space. And this isn’t like a small play space. This was in the, um, the solarium. So there were hundreds of swingers on 50 beds trying to do the math here in my head, a hundred beds.

It was a lot. So there were a lot of people and they were right there out in the open. This wasn’t like in a corner. This wasn’t in a, you know, a hidden shady place where they could kind of hide a little bit and be discreet like it was, boom, it’s right there. And it was, we were, we were amazed. I was excited, amazed by it.

It was awesome. Be able to see that. I need to watch be because we’ve, we don’t have that taboo, like it’s never been a thing. Like we, we don’t yuck your yum. Whatever.

Yeah.

Does it for you good for you? And it was, it was nice to see such an outward and open expression. And nobody was like, like, it was like, Oh yeah, they’re having sex.

That’s just what they’re doing. Yeah. It was nice. Yeah. Um, so I, I, I don’t know what I’m going to say right now. So it’s interesting because we’re going through this kind of Process this, this awakening, this shift in your experience. Cause you’d said that there there’s been a stigma, um, in your community as well.

some ways, gay men are the worst perpetrators of that kind of stigma. Yeah.

Yeah. So talk, talk more about that. I mean, tell us about how you’ve seen some of the shifts in, in the community, in your community with that. Yeah,

what it is. I think it is probably kind of old patriarchal ideas of what a man is. But, but I think, you know, a lot of gay men would say they would never date a bisexual man because they’ll just leave you for a woman because that is an easier life, right? Um, less,

yeah, right,

or, or, you know, it’s, it’s, And then I think, uh, a woman maybe would say like, oh, well, you’re really just gay, right? So one wins, right? I, and I think it wasn’t until I spent enough time meeting enough bisexual men where I was like, okay, what, you know, of course it makes sense that there would be bisexual men.

And I think it makes totally makes sense that, um, you know, that, that you, you know, They have, are dealing with just as many, uh, in many ways, more stigma, uh, today than, than, than gay men are in many ways. And so been, I think, um, heartening, uh, to see how there is been a shift. And it has been very recent.

I think you’re right. because you know, it’s, it’s something that I don’t know. Like when you. Like, I guess, you know, the struggle I’m thinking of, you know, I don’t want to speak too much about this because I’m not bisexual, so I wouldn’t, I

right.

uh, don’t want to speak too, too out of school, but, but it, even in my own self, I think, uh, as time goes on, um, you kind of, the more and more you think about a lot of these things, um, the more the rules or the distinctions or the, even the idea of identity, like of, of, of choosing an identity makes less and less sense.

You know, I

Yeah.

um, it’s, it’s in an ideal world. Um, You kind of just leave yourself open to all possibilities, right? And so, know, you know, and, and, and the idea, I get why you have to choose, like, for political reasons, for social reasons. Um, but in many ways, it feels like we’re trying to attach hinges to that. To a phenomenon that doesn’t actually exist, right? There is no one who is 100 percent straight, just like there’s no one who’s 100 percent gay, but we’re kind of forced into these boxes, and so the more we can Um, and that’s not to say, like, I don’t think that, uh, that everyone is bisexual or everyone’s pansexual or however you want to, however you want to put it, but, but my hope is that as time goes on, we start to realize that though useful, a lot of these terms and boxes that, that we’re kind of forced to put into, um, make, make less and less sense and, and, and mean, mean less and less.

Yeah. Oh,

struggled with titles, with categories, with descriptions. And in the lifestyle, you, you put a label on your profile. Um, as, as a woman, Phoebe’s had to struggle with deciding. you know, how bi she is, right? And there’s, there’s the whole like bi comfortable.

Um, there’s, there’s bi from the waist up, right? Like there’s, we’ve got all these funny ways of describing it in the lifestyle. Bi friendly. Yeah. Yeah. But there’s also just the, the concept of you’re a full swap couple or you’re a soft swap couple. Well, what does that mean?

interesting.

There’s a classic definition for it, but because sexuality is so fluid and because everybody’s kind of personal definition about it and they’re, it’s a spectrum, it’s hard to go, Oh, well, this label means exactly this thing.

Because everybody’s interpretation of it is different and they may feel a little strongly, you know, one direction or another. And so the question comes down to, okay, well, how bi are you? Or what do you mean by that? Or, um, the one that gets us all the time is bi women. Of course they want to have sex with all women, right?

Like that’s, that’s what it means to be. And it’s like, no, it doesn’t work like that. You’re heterosexual. It doesn’t mean you want to have sex with everybody.

Heh

opposite. gendered person. It kind of means a whole bunch of different stuff. So yeah, labels are hard. Labels are really challenging because it does feel like you’re putting somebody in a box and kind of more amoebic than that.

Yeah and sometimes they, you know, let’s say you do have a attraction to someone who you maybe, do not or

Right?

um, you know, sometimes I think we think too much about what does this mean?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

than you have an attraction to someone else, right? And I get why that’s the initial reaction, um, because there are a lot of implications around, uh, who you’re attracted to.

Still, that is just inescapable for this moment in time. you know, I think what I’ve learned at least through the process of making this film is like, like, just let yourself feel that. And the best thing you can do is just talk about it, you know, talk about it with people you trust and love and who aren’t going to judge you and find that community.

And, you know, if you can talk about it with a person or, you know, it’s, It doesn’t have to mean anything, you know, other than, uh, something to then talk about. And I think, um, if you can kind of just, before you let kind of a runaway train kind of make it, make this, this, this. this like anxiety inducing stressful situation. you know, it’s in the end, right? The best part about sex is just connection with someone. Even if you don’t even touch, uh, you know, you can have, you know, I’ve, I’ve had more intimate, memorable, loving relationships with someone I only held hands with versus someone who has been fully inside of me, you know, like it’s

Right.

you know, you know, and, and, and it doesn’t necessarily mean anything. Uh, but, but. When you’re on your deathbed, like, what are you going to treasure the most? And to me, it is just the myriad of connections that feel truly intimate, present, uh, and loving. And so I think, the more of that you have in your life, the better. So, so, so, so, so why not at least be open to all of it?

Yeah.

Yeah, I like that. Intimate. You know, when you’re on your deathbed. Yeah, you took me there and I was like, I was in the hospital, I was on my deathbed, I was thinking, yeah, what are the most open, loving connections I’ve had in my lifetime? You know, who would those people be? Yeah. And who?

I think we place an emphasis on quantity over quality

Yeah. Yeah.

I did. Um, so, and that’s been something I think I’ve been thinking much more around. You know, I think my initial reaction to, uh, the Catholic church telling me that gay sex was immoral and wrong and I was going to hell was

Hmm.

much gay sex as possible.

Right.

Indiscriminately. That was my, my, my way of handling it.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah,

Like,

yeah.

you. Um, but,

Exactly. Yeah.

time for me to untrain that, you know, that I don’t necessarily need, than focus on, um, uh, or just, you know, just, just, just being, making that a prominent part.

You know, just thinking like, well, what are the actual connections I want to make and how do I want to make them? And, and, um, How much can you be in the present in, you know, during sex? Right? Cause that’s to me, the best sex is when you’re just fully present. You’re not thinking about what this means or, you know, and you’re just with the, with the person or multiple people or whatever it is.

And so, um, that’s been the biggest struggle I think for me is, is to think about, um, um, being, making every moment count as much as possible and who that’s with and how that’s done, uh, can, can change day by day. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. And, and that kind of takes us over to consent and how you can start having consensual conversations with people. If you’re interested in, you know, connecting with them, you, you, there’s an attraction obviously. And then, then, then starts that conversation of, of, of consent and consent in, in, in education, it’s just starting.

Like, I didn’t even learn about consent until, not, not really learn about consent until a year ago, a year ago.

Yeah, I believe that, unfortunately.

I mean, and people just throw it around. Oh, consent. Oh, okay. Yeah. Yes. I say yes. Like that’s my, that was my extent of consent. Like, oh, sure. I know what it means. It means yes. Right.

Yeah.

No, no, it’s like, it’s, it’s, it’s, Multilayered and when I started researching that and getting into that, I was like, how do people not know about this?

How is this not even talked about? And It it was incredibly empowering and and and sexy honestly to to Be engaged in a conversation about consent, about what you want and what you, you’d like and what you want to do, what you want to share, how you want to do it. I mean, that right there was foreplay to me.

Right. And I was, and you, you, I felt honored. I felt respected even, and this is all even before getting to the bedroom. So I’m like, wow, this is, there is something to this. This is fantastic. Um, And then I started thinking all the way back to how consent isn’t even, as in growing up, as a child, you get, you get pushed, you know, little Phoebe, go over there and, and give, give grandma a hug.

And, you know, I’ve, you don’t want to, you know, so even as a child, you’re forced to, to do things. I get that, you know, we’re doing that to socialize our children and things like that. But there are a lot of times where parents will force children to do something they, they don’t want to do it. And they’re, they’re They think it’s in their best interest, but did you ask them, like, is there a reason why they don’t want to do that?

So, there’s some, like, stuff all the way down to, to growing up about consent that I’ve just started to crack into, which is fascinating to me, my brain is geeking out on all the, all the, that new information, so.

I mean, it’s crazy. I think, um, that, Kind of the overarching message around consent for the most part is like just say no just say no just say no just say No,

Mm hmm.

then all of a sudden you’re supposed to be expected to understand how to say yes

Yeah. Right.

And I think that’s a problem and I think I’m my initial reaction to a lot of sexual interactions Was that my you know, I was so not used to talking about sex. Um, and so my initial reactions were much more of a freeze response than a affirmative consent response. And so that’s been something that’s taken a while to think through. I think luckily, Uh, being gay, there’s no assumed sexual interaction, right? There’s, you know, there’s, you don’t know who’s gonna be the top, you don’t know who’s gonna be the bottom.

You are forced to, in many ways, talk about things. You

Hmm.

learn that like, like, you know, that, Before anything happens, you got to negotiate like what’s going to happen. How’s this going to, this is what I want. This is what do you want? Do you

Right,

You know? And so, and just because it’s two people of the same sex, so there are no, uh, obvious prescribed roles.

And so

right, right.

thing I think, um, a benefit, I think, uh, of, of being a, when it comes to consent is that, you’re just, you’re forced into those conversations. If,

Yeah.

and, and that’s been a great, uh, learn it, learning for me to, to start to talk about things that I would was petrified to talk about.

Yeah, that’s interesting. I hadn’t thought of that perspective. That makes sense. So now I know it’s easier in the gay community than it is in the swinger community. It’s also easier in the BDSM community because of that same thing.

it all figured out, yeah.

Right? Yeah, they’re dialed. They’re like,

ones teaching consent. It’ll never happen in my lifetime, I don’t think, but they should be the ones teaching consent. Yeah,

Yeah, yeah.

know if you’ve talked about this before, but yeah, yeah, you know. if you’re doing BDSM right, um, um, only thing that matters is consent because if consent isn’t there and you don’t have everything place in terms of everything that’s going to happen, it’ll just go wrong.

No one

Yeah.

won’t be enjoyable for anyone. So,

Yeah,

that. Yeah. Oh,

aspect of it, but also because of the, the sensual play aspect of it. And we had attended a class, um, through a local group called boundless. Um, we kind of ran across them at the Folsom street fair and, um, have, it was a great, great course.

Uh, it was a, it was an evening course. We, we did it online and just, just going through that, the mechanics of, of having that conversation and the things that they consider when they go through those conversations is, was fantastic. We’ve been very strong advocates in the Swinger community that we need to embrace a little bit more of that, right?

Like let’s take a page out of their book. In terms of consent and trying to turn it into something. It’s like, look, it’s, this doesn’t have to be mechanical. It doesn’t have to be awkward. You can openly talk about sex in a way that’s kind of fun and sexy. And I think that’s been our, our main driver for, for those kinds of conversations.

Um,

like fear of rejection is a big part of, of, of kind of those conversations? That’s what I find often, uh, is the

yeah.

kind of talk through. Yeah.

Yeah. I think, I think fear of rejection. Um, I think that there’s a fair amount of awkwardness just in general, in terms of like closing the deal, right? Like you’re approaching somebody, are they even going to like you? And then, you know, to have to talk about the awkward. you know, conversations about consent.

And I think too, this goes back to the whole point of a sexplanation in the beginning, which was, we don’t talk about sex.

Yeah,

Um, it’s, it’s hard even when you’re in a, you know, a hotel takeover with 150 swingers who are clearly all there to have sex with other people, right? Like that was the purpose.

We didn’t go there for sex. Um, although some people do go there for the drinks and the dancing, but it’s still awkward to have that conversation about this is what I want to have happen, right? These are my intentions for the evening. And, and I think to your point, a lot of that is that I don’t want to get rejected.

It’s hard to ask somebody out in the first place, but, but to then put it out in there and they’re like, Oh, Ooh, no, I don’t want to do that.

Yeah,

What are you talking about?

yeah, I do think, you know, part of consent education, uh, there needs to be also like, how do you let someone down gently? Right, right. But that has to be part of the conversation too, because, it’s hard, it’s hard to reject someone and you, I often, I’ve been in situations where I did things that I didn’t want to do because I just was scared of hurting their feelings, which is crazy to think about,

Yes.

but like, but learning how to let someone down and learning how to take rejection in a way that doesn’t, again, it’s not, it doesn’t mean you’re, you know, Again, it’s not a shame.

I’m not shaming you. It’s just, this was not meant to be. Um,

did we just?

hard.

Yeah, we just heard something we’d been interviewed for a club down in L. A. that does something and one of the guys, the creator of this thing, had said that they have a canned response for that, which is, thank you for taking care of yourself and letting me know what your boundaries are.

Love that. Yeah.

Like, wow, that sounds, That sounds awesome. I was like we all need to learn how to say that right? I’m like, all right, I wrote that down

Cause

like an affirmation

to

Yeah

I mean, to put yourself out there in a

Yeah Yeah Yeah

that, that, and to honor that because I think, you know, um, you know, ultimately, I think the conversation with consent is like, if everyone understands the boundaries, then you can just fully let go and be free in a moment, and, and, I don’t know any good sex that it doesn’t have that, right?

That, that, that you, you, you can really play and, and, and really be free and, and let go. Because if you’re, if there’s a little part of your brain that uncomfortable or unsafe, or if it doesn’t feel good or is unsure,

Right

um, it just throws everything off. And so I think, you know, the, uh, the conversation I wish we’re framed a little I mean, I get why, but it’s, you know, it’s often framed, especially in schools, is like, you know, to prevent rape, or abuse, or violence, which, yes, um, but we don’t talk about the flip side, which is to promote, you know, love, and safety, and,

An amazing sexual experiences. Yeah. Yeah

and so, you know, I, I think we have to, that’s never going to happen in schools, but, but we need to talk,

Right,

know, like, like what is the, you know, what is the point of sex education? is it to only prevent the very worst things that can happen

right,

is it to maximize the very best things that can happen?

right,

and we are just, and I, I get, I get why politically, I get, I get why that, that it’s a hard conversation to have. but, but ultimately, we’re all having sex because we want the best things. Um, but if we’re, we don’t have the tools to set those, the situation up, and it’s hard to do that. You know,

right.

knowing yourself really well. It requires, uh, communication skills, uh, empathy. But, but if you can build that, uh, just, I mean, I mean, the places you’ll go, you know.

Yeah. Yeah, we we Here, some of the most awkward situations in swinging situations tend to be, I was so concerned about my partner and her interactions that that’s all I could focus on. So do your point, right? You have this thing in the back of your head and I mean half the ED situations that happen in the playrooms are because the guy’s freaked out because he’s got to watch his, make sure his wife, his partner is having a good time.

I get that.

And, and you, you gotta get out of your head.

Yeah.

in order to have a good time. And so if you had a really good consent conversation at the very beginning and you’re like, this is what’s on the table, we’re going to do these three things. Won’t it be a lot of fun? Then, then you’re not worried about that other stuff.

Cause, cause you’ve just, you just set the whole menu out and you’re like, it’s a three course meal and we’re going to start with this and we’re going to slowly work through this one. And then at the end, we’re going to have some dessert,

Yeah.

right? Like.

Yeah.

me up. Yeah. Yeah.

the better everything is. Yeah.

Yeah. 100%. Okay. So we’re going to do a wrap up now, if that’s okay with you, unless there’s something else you want to bring up.

Okay.

No, no, no.

Cool. Uh, we already addressed item number one, so let’s skip that one for the wrap up. Yep. Because he already talked about that. And then, um, yeah. So let’s start with number two. Sure. So. Go for it. So we’re going to wrap this up now, uh, Alice, Alice, so we’re going to wrap this up. We have four more questions for you.

Are you involved in any other ways to bring light to our failing sex education?

Any other ways? I mean, I mean, honestly, it’s, it’s, it’s, I, I can’t believe that I’m still having conversations about this film, you know, two, three years after it’s released. So, so that’s, you know, one of the things that I’m hoping is that, you know, it probably won’t happen in schools, but you know, um, Planned Parenthood has taken an interest in the film doing things like that.

And so I

Good.

um, yeah, you know, Being part of the groups, organizations, places where, um, you know, they’re not beholden to a school board has been a very, very interesting place to be in, in talking about these things and just, and just trying to have more conversations, about this, because again, I said, you know, like every little baby step, I think, I think counts.

Yeah. 100%. Um, and I, and, and I. We are very, very happy to just promote the heck out of your, your film because more eyeballs on it, more awareness, more baby steps forward. Um, so, um, I think, I think that’ll help a lot. Yeah. Yeah.

We can’t tell you how meaningful it is because we put so much of our lives and thought into this and, and, and the fact that it’s resonating with, with, with people like you is, is just more than, more than, means more than you can imagine.

All

And it’s interesting because

all

of sex education, right? Yeah. Not even really into the, the really kinky stuff that we’re talking about. Right.

Yeah.

talking about regular normative, you know, patriarchal missionary sex, there’s no way that anybody’s ever going to talk about gay sex or transphobia.

I know.

Swinger sex or Polly say like, really? I know like

that very quickly that in, uh, uh, 80 minutes, we would love to have done more queer kink, all that. But,

there’s always room for a sequel.

that’s what we keep saying, uh, is because we realized very quickly that like, Oh, like people, I didn’t even have a very fundamental understanding of all this. So

Yeah.

we got to start from, you know, very basic place.

Yeah. It’s it’s the alphabet, right? Like we’ve learned the alphabet. We’ve started, we’ve started to form the basic

yeah.

talking about other stuff, which is, which is super fat. Fascinating. Um, Can you reveal what you’re currently working on?

I wish I could, uh, but no, but, but, but This is something I think, you know, I think one of the things that that has been most interesting in this process is You know, how can you use

Yeah.

to melt people’s defenses,

Right. Yeah.

about difficult things. Um, and that’s what I, I hope, you know, when you, when you watch the film, that, that we, we, we keep a joke density that keeps you engaged, but also helps you understand, like, Releases some of that

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

like, oh yeah, we all think this crazy thing and isn’t it crazy that that we don’t talk about these things.

And so that’s been a kind of our goal is to approach a lot of different type of subjects. gender, around sexuality, around all these things. Um, so, so, um, hopefully soonish, uh, we’ll be able to announce some of our new projects around, um, I’m doing that kind of work because,

Nice.

um, yeah, we really hope that, that, um, We, our, our, our hypothesis is that no matter your politics, your background, your upbringing, uh, we have so much more that unites us that we have similar, uh, that, that, that we experience similarly than, than opposite.

And so, um, hopefully using, uh, comedy to, to bring that to light is, is something we’re, we’re, we’re working on now. Yeah.

Hmm. Interesting. Yeah. Yeah, I know. It’s, it’s, it’s hard, right? You get the secret project and you’re like, I don’t want to, I don’t want to release it, you know, can’t be like Deadpool and like release the test footage. And

I have, uh, I would gladly talk about it, but I have, I’ve signed that right away, put it that way.

you’re going to be like, can’t talk about it. But, but, uh, anything else that you want to talk about, baby? Yeah. Let’s, let’s ask you. So plug your stuff. Where, uh, where can people find your films and, uh, and, and tell us a little bit about your, your social media presence, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

I should probably better of my social media presence. But but right now, I think if you want to stream the film, it’s it’s, um, you know, it’s streaming on freebies, probably if you if you want to watch it free and then and then, uh, the kind of home we’ve landed is on peacock. So if you want to find it streaming on peacock, that that would be amazing. Um, yeah. Yeah, but, but, but if you want to find me on, on all social media, it’s, um, uh, alexanderxlou. Um, and, and, um, my, my goal is to, to, to post more in, in the coming year and hopefully I will have more exciting things to post.

Yeah. Excellent.

but yeah, it’s, um, you know, um. You know, I keep saying if you want to watch the film, if there are things you want to talk about with someone who matters deeply to you, uh, our film is the perfect way to approach some of those subjects because, uh, it’s a great way to, um, um, you know, I get this question a lot, like, like, Oh, so does that mean I like, like, I should just, you know, Totally talking about every single thing I’ve ever seen with my, now that’s probably not the right approach. Maybe

Baby steps.

clearer

Baby steps.

Um, or I get the question that’s like, Oh, I want to do this, but it’s so scary. And I get that, and I’m always like, well, that’s why we made the film.

Right.

it’s easier to talk about these things, uh, with, uh, Through a third party, through someone that’s not you,

Mm hmm.

you think about the celebrity?

Or what’d you think about this news event? Or

Right.

film? Uh, and then you can start that conversation. And, and, and I think. we do make it seem in the film, you know, we shot over seven years and it’s an

Wow. Wow.

yeah, so, so you, it makes it seem like, you know, the course of a couple months, I’ve had this, I’ve had this big turnaround, but it was, you know, little conversation after little conversation, a little conversation, you get easier, easier and easier in it. And there, you know, a minute, two minutes at a time. And, and, and then you’ll be amazed if you do that work seven, 10 years, um, you know, you, you can, um, Uh, your mom can call you a sloppy masturbator and, and, and you won’t flinch, you won’t flinch, you know, so, so,

Right. Right.

uh, uh, it’s, it’s been, um, it’s, it’s, you know, hopefully our, our, our, our film can help you move that one baby step that, that you need to, yeah,

Yeah. I, I Um, I love that you get to be the awkward person in the room when two people are watching the film. Right? Like they don’t have to have that awkward conversation because,

I will, I will, I

because here’s Alex masturbating in an MRI machine and you’re like, well, that’s pretty, I thought I was going to have an awkward conversation.

It’s it’s great. And, and I think to your point, it. It does. It’s like someone made a film about having this conversation. Someone went through that pain. I could probably do it too because my conversation is going to be much easier than confronting a Jesuit priest or a, you know,

Right,

or a politician in, in Utah, right?

exactly. Yeah, yeah.

Alex, thank you so much for showing up on our show. We haven’t done an interview in a while. Um, we, we did them initially when we first started the podcast. And, uh, so we’re a little rusty, but. First, we couldn’t believe that you even responded to our Instagram message.

We were like, running around the house, Oh my god, he responded! That movie was so good!

Oh, I mean, I felt the same. If someone still wants to talk about this film, I can’t believe it.

So, you were probably the quote, biggest celebrity that we’ve ever had on the show. So there you go. You get that notoriety. You actually have something,

for

for now, right, you get it. Big things to come, right? Big things. Um, we appreciate you coming on. It’s been amazing talking to you and, and kind of breaking this all down.

And, uh, it, it’s, it’s been fun for us to, to have this conversation with you.

I, I just, honestly, I can’t thank you enough that you would even take the time to speak to us, talk about the film. It’s just, like I said, you know, we made this, uh, not expecting many people to see it at all. And the fact that it still has any legs at all, it’s just, it’s, it’s surreal in a way that’s hard to describe.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, as they say, the internet is forever. So, you know, this,

yes!

film will just keep popping up, uh, so to speak.

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