Taking One for the Team – Do You Compromise?

[00:00] [Unknown] Have you ever taken one for the team, do you have sex when you don’t want to because
your partner does? And do you keep score? We ask Swinger couples and you might be shocked at
some of their answers. Welcome to Swinger University, I’m Ed. And I’m Phoebe. Join us as we explore

[00:24] [Ed] the exciting world of ethical non-monogamy, sexual health and sex education with an intellectual

[00:31] [Phoebe] and sexy twist. Oh my gosh, this is a heated topic and I’m just dying to get into it because

[00:38] [Ed] And it’s interesting because we’ve heard a couple different perspectives on this one. Yes,
we we’ve heard this term a number of times throughout our 10 years plus swinging. Yes, there was
an incident that happened recently that kind of inspired this episode and us wanting to dig deeper

[00:58] [Phoebe] into it. Right. Which is why I love doing what we do because I’m always questioning do people
like this? What’s the what’s the other side to it, right? Right. We’ve heard what we’ve heard and we
know what we feel, but what does everybody else feel like? Right. So we surveyed our community and
what we found was there’s a team no don’t take one for the team and there’s a team yes do take
one for the team and then there’s this whole aspect of do you keep score? Right keeping track of

[01:40] [Ed] who took when for what and they’ve gotten two so you get two and this kind of right
equaling the the scales of justice for right right. So it was interesting. We’re going to start with

[01:56] [Unknown] the team no first. Right. And it’s interesting the the wiggle room that the nose have and the
yeses have. So let’s get into the team no. For the most part team no has this policy that anything
less than an enthusiastic yes from both people. It’s a no. So if everybody’s not on board no go

[02:22] [Ed] although what’s interesting is as they’ve gotten more experience they’ve started to really hone
in on that and one of the reasons they they get to this no point is they’re just not willing to
compromise. You know what I don’t need to compromise on my sexuality anymore. Right and that happened

[02:43] [Phoebe] for me because I didn’t have we didn’t have a lot of experience swinging. I didn’t know what to
expect you didn’t know what to expect you you do your best with the information that you have
and information that you get when you’re in a situation and you have an experience and then you
reassess and go pros cons yeah you know didn’t really like that experience or yeah that was
amazing let’s do it again over time as those experiences you know progress and you catalog them
then you may start to go you know I have filet mignon right here in front of me I don’t have

[03:30] [Ed] to settle for hamburger anymore. The other thing that happens with experience is couples become more
confident and comfortable with just saying no yes it’s hard to say no you don’t want conflict you
don’t want to make people feel bad but guess what you get to a point where you’re like no I don’t
need to say yes I don’t feel the social pressure to say yes anymore I’m okay saying no and everybody
should be comfortable saying no but it’s hard to do it’s not easy it’s not easy because of the

[04:04] [Phoebe] social pressure and the programming especially for women being they’re they’re taught to be
people pleasers right we we are connectors of a community we bring families together we bring
people together we nurture and take care of people wanting everyone to feel okay is in our nature
so to speak but in the swinger community I really had to let that go right because you know what I

[04:35] [Ed] was doing a disservice to myself one of the other things that came out during this survey was people
feeling like they had higher standards that they didn’t feel like they needed to compromise
that they had this right to be choosy the whole steak versus hamburger like I have something good
why why do I need to compromise so I’m only looking for stuff that’s as good as what I’m getting
or or at least approaching that because obviously sex with your own primary partners

[05:08] [Phoebe] always better yes never gonna be the same with anybody else right it’s gonna be best it could be

[05:14] [Unknown] a lot of fun but it doesn’t doesn’t usually equal and what’s interesting with this group too

[05:21] [Ed] is that there really isn’t any wiggle room on this like they’re they were pretty much set on
you know nope there if it’s not enthusiastic it’s a hard no we thought about how do you kind of
advance out of that or what are some of those ways so that you don’t feel like you’re always
saying no or that you have these kind of unattainable standards when you meet other couples let’s face
it there’s not a lot of supermodelcy running around in a lifestyle that are willing to have sex

[05:54] [Unknown] with everybody especially us average people so how do you kind of work through that how do you kind

[06:04] [Ed] of maybe expand your boundaries a little bit so that you’re saying no a little bit less if you
feel like it these are just some ideas one of the ways is flexibility with your preferences
mm-hmm I know personally my preferences have changed throughout our experiences within the
lifestyle right I’m choosing to have sex with people who I may not have chosen to when we first
got into the lifestyle because I’ve had some positive experiences with people who are maybe a

[06:35] [Unknown] little bit outside my boundaries and it was a lot of fun yes yes so I’m okay with maybe changing my

[06:45] [Ed] boundaries a little bit or that over time my boundaries have expanded right I’m the opposite

[06:54] [Phoebe] and where I wasn’t as I mean I had boundaries maybe I wasn’t as picky in the beginning
because I didn’t know what I didn’t know and I feel like my tastes are maybe more refined now
not picky but just more refined and I don’t want to just lay down for anybody I really value
the that connection with people now as opposed to before but I had a reason for why I didn’t want
a connection before because to me it felt threatening now it doesn’t feel threatening now I desire that
so once again my preferences have changed as well yeah and I’ll say that one of the reasons why my

[07:39] [Ed] boundaries have kind of expanded was this concept of getting to know people yes and you know when
you get to know somebody sometimes they’re sexier than when you first meet them yes yes and that
has a lot to do with that level of enthusiasm that level of connection and that feeling that you know
what I feel comfortable they may not be my my typical they may not be that that kink or that
fetish that I really usually go for but god they seem like a lot of fun right

[08:15] [Phoebe] this could be interesting okay so that was team no let’s talk about team yes team yes is either

[08:27] [Unknown] an enthusiastic yes or a lukewarm yes right right so they have a little more live a room

[08:39] [Ed] classic example of this is we’ll just say one partner is a ten and the other partners five maybe
a five but they’re interesting they have a they’ve got some particular feature that you go you know
I could kind of just dive into the boobs for a while and just forget the rest of the stuff right

[09:03] [Unknown] that’s okay all right we need your help so that your community the very one you love and have so
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[10:13] [Phoebe] it’s the humor or they they tickled my brain it’s the sapio sexual aspect that I really like

[10:22] [Ed] maybe they talk dirty really well right and that just and then does it for you the tingles start to

[10:29] [Phoebe] happen you’re like oh yeah it’s on right so what’s fun about that is that you get to experiment and
discover new things with other people that you may have not known that you like right and you go oh

[10:46] [Unknown] I want to do that again with that person because I don’t get that with you and I could get that

[10:52] [Phoebe] with that person and it’s fun because it’s like going out for ice cream and you’re like oh I get to
have chocolate ice cream and never have chocolate ice cream at the house I have chocolate ice cream

[11:00] [Ed] or the sprinkles or whatever right right I mean the dirty talks are really good example I mean maybe
that partner can talk a really good game and they’re basically just seducing you right off your
feet you’re like oh I’m in I was a maybe and now I’m a abs oh hell yeah take me away right right

[11:20] [Phoebe] so this this the team yes also said that you know these lukewarm yeses allow for more experiences
right like what we were kind of describing you don’t really know because you need to open up
that space for the experience to happen right right early in our swinging we said yes probably more
so than we say yes now we were also experimenting a lot with orgies and they seem to be very as
like people like to say organic right there was very spontaneous right and they always seem to be

[12:04] [Ed] happening everywhere and so in order to I wish they happened all the time but it didn’t

[12:09] [Phoebe] require a lot of conversation up front which is where we were awkward and so we would just kind

[12:17] [Unknown] of jump in right and it was nice that note we were very very lucky and it’s a testament to this

[12:27] [Phoebe] weird community that the people were very respectful and didn’t take advantage there was no

[12:34] [Unknown] negotiation or any kind of quote verbal consent up front there’s a lot of non verbal consent there’s

[12:41] [Phoebe] a lot of non verbal and it just worked now I will say in the early days I don’t think people party

[12:49] [Ed] to as hard as they do now seems to yeah seems to have ramped up a little bit it doesn’t so if I

[12:57] [Phoebe] I’m a little more picky with with people who are a little more early influence high or drunk because
I tend not to have as good experience and so for me that’s my personal preference and choice

[13:13] [Ed] right right and a lot of our early experiences with you know saying yes or at least being comfortable
with kind of being in those those larger group dynamics had to do with there were a fair amount of
babies there were a couple knows in the room but because of the group situation you can be a little
flexible and you can kind of move around the room and as some people have said there’s no such thing

[13:40] [Phoebe] as a bad blowjob oh my goodness the last thing which is really a turn on for for me and I’ve heard
this from other people is that that energy that when you look at another couple and you can tell that
they’re just in love with each other right they’re just passionate about each other right and you
love the way they make out with one another you love the way they touch one another and it’s exciting

[14:12] [Unknown] it is a turn on and you just want to be part of it right and I have had that experience multiple times

[14:20] [Ed] and honestly it is the most beautiful thing ever it’s really exciting to watch that enthusiasm
whether it’s a single partner or it’s a couple that level of enthusiasm really gets me motivated
it’s very exciting to watch and it you kind of feed off of that energy it’s kind of powerful yeah

[14:46] [Phoebe] because they’re owning their sexuality they’re owning their passion and their expression
and they’re not afraid to show it and that is addicting it’s catching right well let’s talk about

[15:01] [Ed] keeping score and IOUs this is one of those things where you’ve got a tally sheet in the back of
your head where you’re like hmm remember that time with that thing with the girl in the that room

[15:15] [Unknown] and it was weird jungle man guess what yeah I’m calling in that that favor because now

[15:23] [Ed] that couple I want that partner and we’re gonna have a good time and guess what

[15:31] [Phoebe] calling in the chip I’m calling in the chip some people said that that phrase or the concept of
quote score is is really wrong and and insensitive right didn’t like it at all I don’t think anyone
really was in the in favor of of using it in that way right there were a few people in favor of
saying yeah and IOU right it was kind of a little softer of an approach sure sure and I think

[16:04] [Unknown] when it gets to the point where you feel like you’re pushing your partner to do something that

[16:09] [Ed] they’re not comfortable with when when that IOU is a kind of a detriment to your partner right yeah

[16:18] [Phoebe] that’s kind of a no fly zone yeah yeah it it usually the IOU is when one partner’s all in and the
other person’s kind of on the fence right maybe they haven’t had enough time to communicate with
their other partner or flirt with them or warm up to them engage with them enough right and
we’ve actually had this happen before where you were all in and I’m like I’m with you I just need
more time with him I need to talk with him I need to feel more comfortable but I think there’s
a strong possibility right and so you we negotiated we took step aside we negotiated and I said you
know I just give me another half an hour conversation with him and I think I think we could make this

[17:06] [Unknown] happen once I was all in then we had a great time I will say that I tend to fall into the taking one

[17:15] [Ed] for the team side to a certain degree I know how hard it is for you to find partners that you like

[17:24] [Unknown] really connect with and when you do I feel a little guilty because my palette is maybe a little
wider than yours and so if you’re having a hard time finding partners and you find one that you
really gel with and their partners maybe me not so much on my list maybe even on the border of
not really interested right I might still do it just because it’s so challenging for you to

[17:58] [Guest] find people who you just connect with oh interesting I didn’t know that and because I’ve had

[18:09] [Ed] such a good luck and because my spectrum is a little wider than yours I don’t really have a problem

[18:17] [Unknown] finding partners where I’m like yeah it’ll be fun do you think there is that satisfaction and a

[18:26] [Phoebe] rotic charge watching me have sex with somebody else oh absolutely I mean there’s a whole bunch of
things that go into that so say for example maybe you don’t like I don’t know the shape of the woman’s
hand let’s just say the shape of the woman because I’m not gonna we’ll go abstract we’ll go abstract
maybe you don’t like the shape of her hand you’re like you know what there are 10 other things about
this woman’s body that I really enjoy but the hands you know we’re kind of putting you over
edge so speak but you’re like you know what there’s a there’s nine other things that are great and

[19:07] [Unknown] I get to watch my wife with this man absolutely and I think part of it is

[19:14] [Ed] that I can I tend to be able to find at least one attractive attribute or at least one redeeming
thing I’m I’m very much a lemonade person I like to create lemonade even when I’m handed lemons
now that sounds very objectifying but at the same time if you’re not attracted to someone
you’re not attracted to them right but I can kind of find attractive qualities for a lot of people
and so I think that’s why my spectrum is maybe a little bit wider than yours is I think for us

[19:51] [Phoebe] it also has something to do with your background and my background I’ve had a lot of shitty
sex in my life oh absolutely really don’t want to have any more shitty sex there’s also the really

[20:05] [Ed] just the the very real issue that women are accepting a man inside of them and that’s very invasive
yes men we’re pretty much just sticking things in other people right and it’s it’s a different

[20:23] [Phoebe] experience from everything that I’ve heard yeah we are inviting you into our home our own sanctuary

[20:31] [Ed] so it is it’s different right this one’s a little awkward this almost plays into our gossip
episode and how things get out in the community and that’s what happens if one of your play

[20:46] [Guest] partners finds out that you took one for the team can you imagine well it’s from an ego standpoint

[20:54] [Ed] or from a body image standpoint that can be demoralizing oh yeah so if you’re going to do this be
really careful about how you deal with it and how you talk about it and how you like keep it to

[21:11] [Phoebe] yourselves like this should not be something now that gets out in any respect because if it gets

[21:17] [Ed] out you’re screwed not only are you gonna be out that guy yeah you’re not gonna be on any house
party list ever you’re gonna be on everybody shit list yes so keep it to yourself yeah it’s your
thing this is how you decide to deal with it and just take it that way here are some really

[21:42] [Phoebe] interesting things to think about when you’re taking one for the team so to speak if it’s not

[21:49] [Unknown] a hundred percent yes is it really consensual right you know so this is just kind of this is to

[21:58] [Ed] think about gray area of not definitively yes so is it really consensual from my perspective yeah
I don’t think I would ever consent to something that I was not comfortable with I may not be a
hundred percent comfortable with it but it’s still consent I’m still at least from my perspective
still saying yes so if you are saying yes and you don’t feel like you’re consenting or you feel

[22:30] [Phoebe] shitty about saying yes it may not be consent correct and I will say in that people please
are mode I have said yes and I did not want to say yes and I felt shitty afterward and who is to
blame me so I have learned to not do that to myself anymore another thing to think about do you feel

[23:02] [Unknown] forced to have sex to make your primary partner happy that would be an interesting thing if you

[23:12] [Phoebe] are feeling that way you should really think about that we get comments and we see comments and
questions a lot in the swing or forums about this and we have actually experienced this
sure more so early on where the husband speaks for the wife right says oh she likes this oh she
really wants this the wife is pretty silent she’s usually under the influence and doesn’t have much
of a voice right and knowing now after years of experience seeing that I do not I stray away
I will talk and ask her directly but up I don’t feel like I get a confident answer from her no way

[24:04] [Ed] yeah and this goes a lot to the the issue of consent and how you can grant consent if you’re not
a hundred percent there or a hundred percent on board and that kind of power imbalance
we’ve seen it in forums we’ve seen it in in conversation with other swingers where it’s like yeah
she just didn’t seem like she was into it she didn’t seem like she was on board like she was
super quiet or she didn’t she wasn’t flirty at all or most of this does tend to be women who seem
to be kind of railroaded or you know dragged along to these events a lot of swingers pick up on
this and it’s easy to spot because they just look out of place yeah they don’t look like a couple

[24:54] [Phoebe] the other thing to think about is do you feel obliged to have sex with somebody else to keep
your partner happy it’s it’s kind of the same thing as feeling forced but you know it’s a little
different yeah you feel obligated right you or at least guilty after the fact right like at the

[25:14] [Ed] at the end of the night you’re like I you actually had this issue for a long time you felt like
if if I wasn’t happy or I wasn’t coming away from a party having that experience

[25:32] [Phoebe] that you had somehow gotten in the way of the fun your yes I ruined your yeah I ruined your fun

[25:39] [Ed] right and I assured you over and over again it’s like no your happiness is just as important
as mine and I am more than happy to just leave a party if that’s what we need to do it was a

[25:53] [Phoebe] bit challenging because it was almost a battle of who wants who to be happy right right wanted you
to be happy but you didn’t want me to be unhappy to the detriment of your happiness right another

[26:07] [Ed] thing to think through is do you think it’s dehumanizing to keep score in other words talk about
objectification I mean it’s literally keeping a tally like that whole notch on the headboard kind

[26:20] [Unknown] of a thing yeah and I I think it’s okay if it’s kind of ingest or you’re having some fun with it
where you’re like you remember that one time at that party and I wasn’t really so much into it but
you were super gung ho okay I’m gonna let you have that but did you see her right or maybe

[26:45] [Phoebe] it’s situational right they say you’re on a cruise and there’s different theme nights and you go
you know tonight’s my night I’m I’m gonna you know I’m gonna go to the playroom and I’m gonna
pick out this type of person and I’m gonna play with them right and then tomorrow is your night
right and so you have a very limited structured time and it kind of becomes like a game a king
sure right something fun that you both do together with the count obviously with a consent of others
and so in that regard you’re kind of keeping score right yeah it you almost make a game of it

[27:29] [Ed] where it’s it’s more of a novelty thing yes yes and you’re you know it’s like a bucket list you’re
like I’ve never tried that before I’m gonna check that box right do you feel resentment or
killed afterward so if you’ve got strong feelings like something wasn’t right about that
you’re thinking about it a lot afterwards think about that right do you feel it is a

[27:59] [Phoebe] lacquer respect to yourself your relationship or even to the other play partner right because
you’ve you’ve said things to them oh my god you’re so hot I really want to play with you again
even though you and you said it to let them down easy or to you know and then all of a sudden
they think oh my god I’m so special to her she’s gonna want me next time I see her and you don’t

[28:26] [Ed] or you didn’t say anything you didn’t try to seduce them you weren’t flirty with them and you
become that silent partner that’s kind of not into it oh yeah how does that make them feel

[28:41] [Guest] at the end right you’re like oh she doesn’t look like they weren’t really into it and I’ve been

[28:48] [Ed] in plenty of situations where it just didn’t seem like she was into it yeah and then she just like
yeah not not at all interested in either me or the situation or whatever right but momentum was
moving that way and that’s where everybody went and I end up feeling pretty weird about it

[29:12] [Phoebe] afterwards yeah and that’s when we stop and we go you know I’m not sure everyone else on the
same page we you know have learned a lot from our new beginnings and the orgies and and and all of
that and we honestly have have moved more towards sober play again we started off sober for the
first three years then we got really comfortable we started you know relaxing a little bit
vibing more a little bit with the social scene it hasn’t really been a pro in my mind I haven’t
had those meaningful connections and experiences that I really like and enjoy when I’m not completely
sober so we are moving more towards that and more of a more expressing what we want out of a

[30:03] [Ed] situation right our preferences have changed as they do the relationship with yourself and with

[30:10] [Phoebe] your partner is an agreement if you don’t agree to stand up for what you want nobody else will
relationships are all about agreements and negotiating what works for you and your relationship

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