[Phoebe] How do you have that first conversation with your partner about swinging?[Phoebe] This could be a big shock to your partner, and it will impact your relationship[Unknown] either in a negative or a positive way. We are going to talk about the ways to bring up the topic,[Phoebe] dive into those conversations, and discuss the importance of good communication.[Phoebe] Welcome to Swinger University with Ed and Phoebe.[Ed] Well, how did we start the conversation?[Phoebe] R's was really centered around podcasts.[Phoebe] Oh, go figure. Right.[Phoebe] Go along the nose. Yeah, Ed was guilty. He was listening to podcasts.[Phoebe] I didn't know really a whole lot of podcasts, and of course, Ed was listening to the sexy ones.[Phoebe] And he was listening to a podcast called Sex is Fun.[Phoebe] And they cover a wide range of topics and one of them happened to be on swinging.[Phoebe] So he brought it up to me and said, oh my gosh, I learned about this thing.[Phoebe] Like, have you heard of this? What do you think?[Phoebe] That's when I shocked him. I was like, oh yeah, I know about that.[Phoebe] I actually wanted to do that with my last boyfriend, but he said no.[Phoebe] And years and years and years went by, and it just never came up. I got married again,[Phoebe] and the topic never resurfaced. But when I was in my 20s, heck yeah. I was all about discovery,[Phoebe] wanting to explore, learn new relationship models. But then I just fell into the standard[Ed] relationship model that most everybody has. Yeah, that good old fashioned monogamy. Yeah.[Phoebe] So that opened the door. And then we never turned back.[Ed] Yeah. So we did a ton of listening to podcasts and a lot of self kind of discovery and soul[Ed] searching. But that kind of came afterwards. That first conversation is what we're really[Unknown] talking about today, which is, this is going to be a shocking thing. You're springing something[Ed] on a potential swinging partner. Maybe their mindset isn't there. Maybe they're not thinking[Ed] about those kinds of things. Maybe they are thinking about those kinds of things.[Ed] But you're taking a big leap of faith that admitting that you're thinking about it isn't going[Ed] to break that dynamic, isn't going to break that relationship. Yeah, honestly, it's scary[Phoebe] than telling giving any kind of bad news, a death in the family. You know, you're not partners[Phoebe] going to leave you like, I mean, this has the potential of breaking your relationship.[Unknown] It's really close to admitting infidelity. Yes. And some people will think of it that way.[Ed] So it's pretty scary. It's risky. It's risky. It's a risky move, which is why, you know,[Phoebe] how do you bring this up to your significant other, right? This is one of the things that we[Ed] have as a question. How do you bring it up? I tried to be a little slick about it and say,[Ed] hey, I was listening to a podcast that sounded curious, right? It played well because it was benign.[Ed] It wasn't me thinking about it, per se. Right. It was a podcast that I mentioned it. So did[Phoebe] this really have it or just make that shit up? No, it did really happen. I was listening to a podcast,[Ed] but I had talked about swinging with a previous partner. It just never happened, right? And there[Ed] were tons of issues in that relationship that really would have been bad. Yeah. A lot of insecurities[Ed] and a lot of issues. So I knew you and I were in a really good place and felt fairly safe bringing[Phoebe] it up. Right. And ironically, we weren't even married. No, the fact that you felt safe. And maybe[Ed] that's because we didn't have anything to lose. That was part of it. And I knew that we were[Ed] experimenting. We were still learning about each other. And it was kind of in those formative[Ed] weeks, months when we had first gotten together where it was kind of like, well, I can either[Ed] tear the bandaid off now or wait and see. Yeah. And we had both been in sexless marriages[Phoebe] for a period of time. Right. And we'd both said to ourselves, that's never going to happen again.[Phoebe] So if this is going to be the person, then this is going to be the person. If it's not,[Phoebe] then I'm moving on because we were dedicated to never going back to that and exploring that[Phoebe] that type of pleasure in our lives and owning it and desiring it and having that.[Ed] Yeah. And some of this kind of plays into having a good sense of what your partner likes and[Ed] what they don't like. And if they've got any kinks, you've probably had little hints that they[Ed] might be leaning that direction. Your wife, for example, had a roommate in college. And you knew[Ed] that they kind of, oh, maybe dabbled a little bit with some extracurricular activities.[Ed] Or you know, you heard about crazy frat parties or any number of things. You know, hopefully some[Phoebe] of that stuff has come out. You could call back up on those stories. I'm like, remember that time[Phoebe] in college when you and your girlfriend or you and your boyfriend did this kinky thing behind[Phoebe] the bushes. Like, right, you know, do you miss those days? Would you ever want to go back to[Ed] that? Like, what did you like about it? Yeah. Do you ever masturbate to it? So having that kind of[Ed] intuitive sense about your partner, what they like or dislike, some of that comes with knowing[Ed] them for a long period of time. And you've had some conversations or a few hot tub experiences[Ed] with friends that are kind of leaning you in that direction. But sometimes you don't. And we[Ed] didn't. We didn't have a longstanding relationship. We didn't have 20 years of marriage and a couple[Ed] kids and all that kind of stuff. And I almost think that it was, there's the, it can't break because[Ed] it's too solid and we've been together for too long. Or it's so new. If it does break, it's not[Ed] that hard to start over. Right. Not that I wanted to start over. But yeah. So, you know,[Phoebe] ideally, you're going to have that good foundation of communication. You're going to have a nice[Phoebe] healthy sex life and a desire to spice things up. Right. That's kind of the ideal[Phoebe] situation. Yeah. So what would be your in to the conversation? We alluded to, you know, past[Phoebe] experiences, right? College days, podcasts, a couple examples we threw out there.[Phoebe] porn is a great conversation stimulator. Sure. What kind of porn do you guys like to watch together?[Phoebe] Do you watch porn together at all? Right. Why not? You know, what is that conversation?[Unknown] What do you like? Everyone has their preferences, right? So, oh, fantasies.[Ed] Sure. Fantasies. Yeah. Have you had conversations about particular fantasies? Maybe a bucket list or[Ed] a thing that you always wish you'd done, but you never did. So if you've had those kinds of[Ed] conversations with your partner and it's been things like, yeah, I've always wanted a threesome.[Ed] That's obvious. Like that, like at that point, you pretty much should just sign up for an event and[Unknown] go because it's pretty clear. But maybe it's more subtle. Maybe it's more like, I've always wondered[Ed] what it'd be like to, you know, be with a stranger or have random sex. Those kinds of thing,[Ed] you know, does she read romance novels that are that deal with that kind of subject? Does he like to[Ed] watch porn that deals with the best friend that comes over? And more and more people are making[Phoebe] sex a priority in their life. They're carving out that time for them and their partner. People[Phoebe] are building sex rooms in their homes. And it's becoming a focus. They're taking adult vacations[Phoebe] to get away. So you can go have that sexy time with your partner. It's not necessarily swinging.[Phoebe] It's just fun and flirty and maybe there's it's a topless vacation. But it's stimulating.[Phoebe] It sparks those conversations and it brings life back into your relationship. So even if you don't go[Phoebe] all the way to being a full-on swinger, at least you're experiencing some new fun things about[Ed] yourself and your partner. Yeah. And it's interesting. One of the first signs that that I got from you[Ed] was when we were walking through the mall and both of us were kind of admiring the women in the[Ed] mall. And I knew at that point it was pretty safe to start talking about some of this stuff[Ed] because you'd already said, hey, check her butt out to me, which is a pretty good sign that[Ed] I could talk about that and not get slapped for the thing, right? Yes. And sexy conversations[Phoebe] with friends too, right? Sometimes you've got those friendships where things kind of start to[Phoebe] progress that way. Get a little spicy. Yeah. And then you alluded to the whole hot tub thing where[Phoebe] people find themselves in hot tubs. We were just talking to some of our good friends, steamy[Phoebe] romantics, where they started out just kind of doing these haphazard things. It was a vanilla[Phoebe] barbecue with friends. They all landed in a hot tub. Some magical fun happened that night. And[Phoebe] then they wake up the next guy and go, oh, it wasn't that kind of stupid. And they just move on.[Phoebe] And then it happens again. And then it happens again. But they didn't have a label for it, right?[Ed] It was just kind of how they did their relationship. We have heard that from quite a few couples.[Ed] I wouldn't say a majority or a minority, but it's been a handful of them that have talked about[Ed] being in a hot tub with another couple and basically playing, you know, random seat change kind of[Ed] game. Yes. Where other partners end up sitting next to other partners and, you know, things happen.[Ed] Things happen. Things happen in hot tubs. Things come up. Yeah.[Phoebe] You could also talk about the turnons and kinks. I think that we covered that a little bit[Phoebe] already. Right. And you can dive deeper into that. Ask about, you know, do you like to be watched?[Phoebe] Right. Do you like to do you only like to be a lawyer, right? So, yeah, do you have fantasies[Ed] about public sex? Does your partner talk about doing sex in risky places? It's a good sign that[Ed] they might actually like to be at a party and be watched having sex with you, which is[Ed] perfectly, perfectly good segue into trying out the lifestyle. Yeah. And, and, you know, maybe,[Phoebe] maybe you're walking down the street in the morning. You're taking a walk. It's a nice spring day.[Phoebe] This has always happened to me in this particular neighborhood. I would always like to take my walk[Phoebe] in the morning in this particular neighborhood because there is a few neighbors that were very frisky[Phoebe] in the morning. And it's a quiet in the morning. And so the, the sound really carries through[Phoebe] those open windows. And so as I'm walking, I conveniently, you know, bend down to time my shoes[Phoebe] or take a water break at these particular houses along the way because why? It was crazy hot to[Phoebe] listen to. Oh, yeah, absolutely. They didn't know what was going on. I was just tying my shoes.[Ed] Well, they were busy. They had no idea what was going on outside. And we've been at a number of[Ed] hotels and listen to the neighbors having sex, which has always been hot for me. And since we've[Ed] been in the lifestyle, ended up with lots of fun friend adventures with neighbors at the hotel.[Phoebe] So if you have any walking with your partner down the street at the same time, you stop to listen[Unknown] and she smacks you on the head with her hat. That's a bad sign. That might be your sign. You might[Ed] just need to move on. You'll need to be prepared for a lot of conversation. You will be having more[Unknown] conversations with your partner than you've ever had at any time in your life. It's like wedding[Ed] planning times 10. Yeah. Yeah. The, the beginning stages, there's a lot of discussing your insecurities,[Ed] working through the reasons of why you're thinking about it, explaining that you're not,[Ed] you know, you're not looking for a replacement wife. It's more about, I just find this exciting.[Ed] It's sexually stimulating for me. What do you think? And sometimes you may not know the full[Phoebe] depth of that insecurity. Maybe you know it as an apple, right? You, you, you tell your spouse,[Phoebe] you know, I think this is what it is. It's an apple. And it makes sense to you at the time. But maybe[Phoebe] you do some journaling labor on because it's kind of bothering you. And all of a sudden you discover[Phoebe] that there's some deeper things, maybe in your past, from your upbringing that, that really is the[Phoebe] deep core truth of it all. Sure. And now you've got to share that honest with your partner.[Phoebe] Right. And you never had to. Why? Because it just really never came up.[Ed] All right. We need your help so that your community, the very one you love and have so much fun[Ed] with can also find our show. Here's a really easy way to do that. If you're listening on Apple[Ed] podcast or Spotify, hit that follow button and leave us a rating. If you're watching on YouTube,[Unknown] subscribe and turn on notifications. We can't emphasize enough how much this helps the[Ed] Swinger community. And it truly is up to you to make that happen. It makes a massive difference[Unknown] in whether new listeners can even find us. And here's the thing. When someone searches Swinger[Ed] podcast, the algorithm doesn't care how good our content is or how long we've been around.[Unknown] It only cares about ratings and reviews. We'd appreciate it. And your community will really[Unknown] appreciate it. Thanks for listening. And that goes to the the concept in swinging that if you have[Ed] any kinds of small micro fractures in your relationship, just little hairline cracks.[Ed] The lifestyle will put pressure on your relationship. It will magnify those cracks.[Ed] And potentially break it. Now, it's also an opportunity to kind of bend it and heal from it and[Ed] grow from it. Right. But it's going to put additional stress on the relationship because you're[Ed] going to be confronted with things that you've never had to deal with. Think about that first[Ed] vacation you take with your spouse. Well, it's bigger than that. It's more impactful than that.[Phoebe] Right. And not just a relationship, but your personal journey individually.[Phoebe] Yeah. Right. So here you are cruising along in life. You're super happy with where you are.[Phoebe] Your mid 40s say, you know, like the kids are gone. You're like, yeah, I figured my stuff out.[Phoebe] Right. Right. Finally, I'm not in my 20s. I'm not all chaotic. I got I got my ducks in a row.[Phoebe] I like who I am. And all of a sudden, stuff comes out of the woodwork and you're like, what the heck[Phoebe] is that? Right. You have to be prepared for that. It will make you a better richer,[Phoebe] more full loving individual. Right. The things in your past will come out. Things you didn't know[Phoebe] were there will come out. Yeah. And you just have to be prepared for that journey. One of the[Ed] nice things is you and your partner can help work through those things. And so if it was stressful[Ed] or it was challenging for you, you now have a partner to help you through it. So that's actually[Ed] one of the really cool things about the relationship growing through this process.[Ed] You're going to help each other and you're going to have those conversations which will strengthen[Ed] not only the relationship, but your own personal sense of self. Right. And right now, it's really[Phoebe] great because there's so many websites, podcasts, six educators, six counselors that are that[Phoebe] that are informed about ethical non monogamy. Right. That are there to support you and council[Phoebe] you. So if you need that support, they're really there. And you can do it virtual for a lot of them.[Phoebe] So it's it's really, really nice. Sex coaches too. Yeah. And we've talked to a few of them and[Ed] had couples come in and talk about we're thinking about engaging in ethical non monogamy.[Ed] Help us through that process. We have questions. We're trying to understand this. And they'll[Ed] give you tools to have conversations about things. So if you're if you've kind of gotten past that[Ed] first initial shock and you, you know, you picked your job off the table and you go, hmm, this might[Ed] be interesting, but I have questions. Yes. Engage with a counselor or a coach and they can help you[Phoebe] work through some of those things. Yeah. It's nice to have a third party walk you through.[Phoebe] Oh, let's see. You will probably need to be prepared for spending more money.[Phoebe] Yes. On travel and new outfits and new shoes and nights out on the town.[Ed] Nights out on the town. Trips to other towns to go visit their clubs and resorts and potentially[Ed] new vacations in Mexico or in Costa Rica. Yes. All of that stuff. Yes. It really starts to add up[Phoebe] because every house party is 60 or 80 bucks. And you know, every weekend getaway is at least 500.[Phoebe] Yeah. Mid-a-mom. So I mean, and then if you're flying, then, you know, you know, how that goes.[Ed] Plus potentially babysitters and all that kind of additional expense. It's not cheap.[Ed] No, it's a commitment, but it's worth it. There's a lot of benefits to it. And just the ones that[Ed] we've outlined here are amazing. And it's fun hobby. Yes. So like we mentioned before, it will[Unknown] test your relationship with the cracks. You know, those hairline cracks that Ed mentioned. So be[Phoebe] prepared. It's going to test you. And it may challenge every single belief you have about[Phoebe] an agamist relationship. And you will start communicating in a different way. And you're going[Phoebe] to feel more vulnerable. So be prepared for that. You will confront your fears and insecurities,[Phoebe] which we talked about. And you will have your mental and emotional fortitude challenged. Yeah.[Phoebe] And for me, I had a rough upbringing. And I even went to pro-cule school. Yes, I wore the socks[Phoebe] and the plaid skirt and the white shirt. She looks very good in them too.[Phoebe] Now I have an updated version. Much sexier. So there was a lot of deep programming that I needed to[Phoebe] go through. And I thought I had that all covered in my 20s because in my 20s, I really didn't party.[Phoebe] I was all about unlearning and deep programming from my past. So I thought my stuff was all buttoned[Phoebe] up. And along comes you. And our fun adventure into this lifestyle. And it did bring up some[Phoebe] challenges. And I was honestly, I was I was angry about it because I liked who I was. I was happy[Phoebe] with where I was at. And I didn't want to analyze some of that stuff. And it forced me to analyze[Unknown] some of the stuff. Well, and you'd also gotten to a point where you said, I finally got through all[Ed] of that stuff. And I've sorted out my business. And then a whole new stack of business got stacked[Ed] in front of you. Yeah. And so now you have different things. So you'd solved all of your problems[Ed] to get to monogamous. And then non monogamy came in and through you will hold different set of[Phoebe] challenges. It's like tax season came and went and then came right back a month later. Right. Right.[Phoebe] Yeah, that wasn't fun. But I have growth and all kinds of opportunities that came from that[Ed] growth. And our relationship definitely has grown stronger because of it. And I think our[Ed] communication has has been amazing. And it's taught us tools and given us opportunities to have[Ed] conversations about sexuality that we probably never would have had. And made discoveries about[Phoebe] sexuality that I didn't know. Yeah. Never would have ever known. So it's important to[Ed] brace for the know. Yes. So we're painting a very rosy picture here where it all works out well[Ed] and 10 years later you're doing a podcast and everything's fun. But it doesn't always end this[Ed] way. A lot of times your partner will say no. And we've gotten letters from listeners who said,[Ed] how do I convince my wife to say yes, how do I convince my wife to become a singer?[Ed] And the long short of it is if she's not ready or he's not ready, it's not going to happen.[Ed] And forcing it is that's not going to be good. Right. Right. Those are those gentle[Phoebe] conversations that you continue and delicately have with your partner. We have a good set of[Phoebe] friends that are on a very slow journey. He's very patient with her and they they're just going[Phoebe] at their pace. But also maybe you can have start having those conversations or have a negotiation[Phoebe] to go talk with a sex therapist or a sex positive counselor where you you want to kind of open[Ed] that door and it is a safe space to do that. Right. So and think a little bit about why they're[Ed] saying no to some of this is empathy and kind of understanding their position. But also consider[Ed] that there's a reason why they're saying it. There's a reason why they're concerned about your[Ed] relationship going into this new chapter. They may have some really good reasons that you hadn't[Ed] considered or they may be aware of feelings that they have inside that they haven't expressed to[Ed] you yet. So there's some reason why they're saying no and you may need to do some introspection[Unknown] with them to figure that out. Yeah. Also remember it's it's it's not about replacing one another.[Phoebe] It's not about fixing your relationship. It's a journey that you embark on together. It's really[Phoebe] a wonderful experience and if you can get to that place where you go past the partying and go[Phoebe] past the sex and you get to that place of compulsion where you honestly truly feel love and joy[Phoebe] from seeing your partner experiencing pleasure that is really the key. Like many things in life[Unknown] if you're not ready to start this conversation how will you have those harder conversations[Phoebe] about kissing other people or watching your partner have sex with them. This conversation will[Phoebe] be the start of many conversations and hopefully a deeper understanding between you and your partner.[Unknown] Oh one last thing before you go. If this episode helped you in any way the single best thing you[Unknown] can do to support the show is leaving a rating and review. It takes 60 seconds and helps new people[Ed] find us when they're searching for relationship education and we've made it easy. Visit SwingerUniversity.com[Ed] forward slash review. All the instructions are there. Thank you for being part of this community.[Ed] We'll see you again soon.