FWB or DTF… WTF! (Who to F*ck)?

[00:03] [Guest] Welcome to Swinger University, your horizontal enrichment program.
Bringing you an educational podcast about swinging.
Here are your hosts.
Ed and Phoebe.

[00:20] [Unknown] Hi, this is Ed.

[00:23] [Ed] And this is Phoebe.
Today we’re talking about two common preferences in the lifestyle.
Friends with benefits or DTF.
Down to fuck.
Making a Swinger couple, your good friend, seems to be the goal.
While those who just want to fuck are somehow thought as aggressive.
When you start out embarking on this sexy adventure of swinging,
you will always hear how couples have other couples that are friends with benefits.
It is touted as this Nirvana swinging.
Well, let me tell you.
It is as real as getting in the mile high club.

[01:11] [Phoebe] Most swingers start out thinking friends with benefits is Nirvana.
The white, picket, friends, the house, two kids in a great career.
Not.
Somehow finding that elusive couple that you connect with year after year
and have many, many fuck dates becomes the goal.
However, the DTF couples may actually be the people you want to fuck.
Why?
Because most swingers are in the lifestyle for 18 months.
And chances of meeting that couple that you think will be your friends with benefits couple

[01:50] [Unknown] are really one in 10.

[01:54] [Ed] Somehow, DTF couples are seen as less desirable.
Maybe they’re scary, they’re intimidating, they’ve got these high expectations
that you’re going to meet and you’re just going to fuck.

[02:07] [Unknown] Like put the keys in the bowl, head to the bedroom.
Head to the bedroom.

[02:12] [Ed] And that’s a very forward thinking approach.
But DTF doesn’t mean just because you meet, you have to fuck.
We go to parties all the time and it doesn’t always happen.
You meet people, both couples still have to figure out whether they are attracted to each other,
whether they even want to have sex, they’re not in the mood.
If you meet a couple and you were attracted to them,
don’t you kind of want to fuck them?

[02:50] [Phoebe] Why is the friends with benefits couple more appealing?
We are going to break down pros and cons for that kind of couple.

[03:04] [Unknown] Pros, you get more opportunities to play.

[03:11] [Ed] Right, they’re a phone call away.
Hey, we’ll bring over a bottle of wine, watch a movie, Netflix and…

[03:21] [Phoebe] Once the kids are off to bed, we all head to the bedroom and they’re dead asleep and they never know.

[03:30] [Ed] And that’s what hot tubs are for.

[03:32] [Phoebe] Oh, yes.
It’s convenient, it’s familiar, it’s comfortable.

[03:39] [Ed] Yeah, you kind of worked out all of the kinks, so to speak.

[03:42] [Phoebe] Introductions, comfortable.
Is that the other thing?

[03:46] [Ed] Right, you’re past that awkward first date phase and you’re straight to the…
Oh, we know them, let’s invite the Joneses over.

[03:57] [Phoebe] Oh, the Joneses.
There are a lot of different vacations that you can have, getaways,

[04:08] [Unknown] your vacation becomes a different type of vacation.

[04:12] [Phoebe] So it’s fun because it’s different than everybody else’s vacation.

[04:19] [Ed] Right, we’ve heard other podcasters talk about their annual trip to desire
where they connect with the couple that they met and it’s like an annual reunion.

[04:35] [Unknown] Yes, yes.

[04:38] [Phoebe] Heck, I have never even gone to my high school reunion.
I would love to have an annual fuck date reunion.

[04:47] [Ed] I’ve been to both my high school reunions and I wanted to fuck at them both, so there we go.

[04:54] [Phoebe] Sharing your vanilla experiences in public can be very tantalizing.
You all have this private secret that’s going on.

[05:09] [Ed] Wink, wink, nudge, nudge, titter, titter.
You tap the secret sneak off to the bathroom girl conversation.
Oh, yes.
Oh, the classic swinger game of…
Do you think that couple over there in the corner might be swingers?

[05:30] [Phoebe] Right, right, we love that game.
We’re always asking, wait, wasn’t he with her before and now she’s with him?
I swear they switched.
Wait, who’s with who?
Yeah.
Flirting in public.
Kind of risky, but exciting, right?

[05:52] [Unknown] And depending on where you are, it could be totally risk-free.
Yes.

[05:58] [Ed] In a faraway city, so us visiting San Francisco, for example.
Sure.
Nobody knows anything.
They don’t know who we are, although we have run to people we knew.
But yeah, it’s kind of fun to flirt outside the bounds and make everybody else go.
Wait a second.
Are they swingers?

[06:24] [Phoebe] Isn’t that my boss?
I thought his wife was a brunette.

[06:28] [Ed] What?

[06:29] [Unknown] That row.

[06:31] [Phoebe] The cons.
You can get too enmeshed in each other’s world.

[06:38] [Ed] We’ve heard about
long-term relationships where typically with a unicorn, but it isn’t always a unicorn.
Sometimes it’s the other woman that, a few stories we’ve heard, where she starts to get really attached.

[06:57] [Unknown] And kind of crosses into that emotional relationship boundaries where it’s not just innocent fun.

[07:08] [Phoebe] Or you, how do I say, in each other’s lives so much.
You’re sharing so much of the day-to-day vanilla.
You’re going to each other’s kids’ soccer games.
You’re doing all this other extra vanilla things together that it tends to be too much.

[07:33] [Ed] A little too much PTA.
And not enough DTF.

[07:39] [Unknown] Exactly.

[07:42] [Phoebe] Another con is you tend to be exclusive.
And there’s lack of variety in your lifestyle.
You do everything with this other couple.

[07:53] [Unknown] And it’s so comfortable that you’re not having the variety that maybe you want.

[08:03] [Phoebe] And maybe you don’t.
Maybe that’s what you want.
And for some couples, that’s great.
They just have that one couple.
And they play exclusively with them for several years.
Three years, ten years, at most.
We’ve heard.

[08:17] [Unknown] So it’s great if that works for you.

[08:21] [Phoebe] But again, you’re lacking variety.

[08:26] [Ed] Well, and the downside with that is you’ve put all of your eggs in that one basket.
So let’s say that couple decides to get out of the lifestyle.
We can name a lot of couples who used to be in the lifestyle and aren’t now.
And if they had been our exclusive, then we wouldn’t have been kind of curating these other relationships or meeting other couples.

[08:53] [Phoebe] It’s kind of like breaking up with a boyfriend or getting divorced.
First, you’re back in the dating scene.
Yes, starting all over again.
And you have no one in your little black book to call on.
Exactly.
Exactly.

[09:07] [Ed] And you go to events and you go to parties and you run into a couple who you’d like to play with.
But now, yeah, you’re kind of in an exclusive thing.

[09:18] [Unknown] Which I gotta say kind of goes against the whole swinger purpose, which is their hot.

[09:27] [Ed] What do you think, honey?
Wouldn’t it be nice to take them back to our room?

[09:32] [Unknown] Right.

[09:33] [Phoebe] You know, you’re right.
And honestly, you, we’ve had so many great experiences where that have surprised me.
And we’re done.
And we’re like, wow, I never had sex with anybody like that before.
Or I didn’t know that I would have so much fun with her.
And her and in the meaning of a woman, because I’m not by, but I will play with a woman.
And I’ve had wonderful experiences.
But it’s random for me.
It’s based on the vibe, I guess, for lack of a better description.
And so I’ve had some pretty hot experiences with women that have been surprising.
And I’m like, oh, that was pretty nice.
I really thought that was great.

[10:33] [Unknown] Of course, it’s quick to say, oh, you are so by.

[10:38] [Phoebe] Well, maybe I am, maybe I’m not, but I still prefer men, you know.

[10:43] [Ed] So it’s more like an 80-20 thing.

[10:46] [Unknown] Right?

[10:47] [Ed] 70-30.

[10:48] [Phoebe] This is very hard to define.
We have a whole other episode on that.

[10:53] [Ed] We’ll just say it’s a sliding scale, depending on the woman.

[10:57] [Phoebe] Right.

[10:58] [Unknown] Okay.

[11:01] [Phoebe] And the last con is being jealous of being left out.
When your new friends have found another couple.

[11:11] [Ed] Right.
They want to expand their horizons, because the variety sounds fun.
And now you’re the third wheel.

[11:18] [Unknown] Yeah.
It’s a little committed, not quite polyamorous.

[11:23] [Ed] When we were talking about this, we were trying to figure out like, okay, where’s the line between polyamorous and the other?
And it’s like, oh, they live with you or they don’t.
But other than that, it’s pretty close.

[11:35] [Phoebe] Some of them, some of these relationships, they do so much together.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So together, travel together.
Yeah, everything’s together.

[11:46] [Ed] Now, I thought of another con.
We’ve met a few couples in the lifestyle that like to play bearback.
And for them, this whole exclusivity and the initial testing that kind of goes into that,
is kind of enmeshed with this friends with benefit concept that we’ve been talking about.
The con with that is, as we’ve talked about with safe sex practices,
you’re only as safe as the weakest link.
So let’s say you have this friends with benefits relationship, you’re playing bearback,
and they have a freaky night one time.
Now, you are opened up to that risky behavior.
Now it’s affecting your sex life and your friends with benefits relationship.

[12:45] [Phoebe] Right.
And that’s put on pause for a good three months because even though you’re tested and you get your test,
and it comes back negative that you don’t have AIDS, you still have to wait about three months to be completely safe.
And not have sex with anybody else.

[13:00] [Ed] So heard goneries and syphilis are coming back to.

[13:04] [Phoebe] Yes, and stronger strains.

[13:06] [Ed] It’s great.

[13:07] [Phoebe] Being resistant to art.

[13:11] [Ed] It’s the end of the days.

[13:13] [Phoebe] It’s the apocalypse.
Why do people tend to have a negative view on DTF couples?
Are they seen as more aggressive as we mentioned before?
Maybe they’re just passionate.
Maybe they’re just driven and confident.
Perhaps they don’t have enough time between jobs, kids, soccer practice.
So they literally have to squeeze in some fun quickly.
So I encourage you to like suspend your negativity around the DTF.

[13:54] [Unknown] Come your mind.

[13:57] [Ed] Tantalizing and promise of DTF.

[14:02] [Unknown] Yes.
Pros.

[14:04] [Ed] Pros.

[14:05] [Unknown] It’s easy.

[14:08] [Ed] It’s free-flowing.
Courageal, fun, friendly.
But it’s a little goal-oriented.
So the idea is you are open to the possibility of things like fucking on the first date.
Yes.

[14:26] [Unknown] Not that you’re going to, but you’re open to it.
Right.

[14:32] [Phoebe] Right.

[14:33] [Unknown] Good one.

[14:34] [Phoebe] I like it.

[14:35] [Unknown] Go ahead.
All right.

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[15:36] [Unknown] Thanks for listening.

[15:43] [Ed] You can keep a long-term connection, but without the involvement of this whole Friends with Benefits, kind of enmeshed relationship.
There’s no reason why your DTF friends couldn’t be repeat offenders.
It doesn’t have to be a one-night stand.
It could be a whole bunch of one-night stands.
Random, hey, call them up.
They’re, as they say, down to fuck.

[16:12] [Unknown] Yeah?

[16:13] [Ed] So why not call them again?

[16:15] [Unknown] Right?

[16:17] [Phoebe] One of the cons.
Well, what other pros can you think?
I couldn’t think of any other pros because it’s just so easy.
Well, I think that’s the thing.

[16:29] [Ed] Think of DTF as more of a mentality.

[16:35] [Phoebe] Yes, yes, yes.

[16:37] [Ed] And open to the possibilities of it.
They’re like, look, we’re tired of rules.
Yeah.
We’ve been there, done that.
We’re not all tightly wound and worried about, well, it’s the first date.
You know, we really shouldn’t.
It’s like, we in high school.
We’re swingers, right?
Like I’ve got condoms, we’ve got lube.
You want to meet other people to fuck.
Hi, where people would you like to fuck?
It’s that simple.

[17:13] [Phoebe] We went to a man to break it down that simply.
There is a little more.
I got all the women out there like, I’m not just going to spread my legs for anybody.

[17:25] [Ed] Well, no, you got to like hit it off with them.
But we add examples where we’ve met a couple and if circumstances had allowed us,
we would have been, we were elbowing each other at the table going, what do you think?

[17:42] [Guest] Oh, yeah, I’d fuck them.

[17:45] [Ed] And we were like, shit, too bad we set this up in a way where we couldn’t or we don’t have a place
or it’s not going to happen.
And the few times where we’ve actually dealt with it, let’s go get a hotel room.
And then something didn’t work out.

[18:05] [Phoebe] Right, I know.

[18:08] [Unknown] I know.
DTF relationships can move too fast for some.

[18:17] [Phoebe] And in the beginning, those did move fast for us.
Because we weren’t comfortable enough, we weren’t ready, we didn’t know all the ins and outs,
we didn’t have the secret handshake password, I wink, what not thing.
We just didn’t know what was going to happen and how was all going to go down.

[18:37] [Ed] Well, when we first started, we were only soft-swap and we had a lot of rules and a lot of…
Well, I feel a lot of nervousness.

[18:46] [Phoebe] A lot of nervousness.
Very few rules.
Yeah, like two or three, maybe three.
It wasn’t much.

[18:55] [Ed] Yeah, I wasn’t this…
These weren’t serious rules.
No.

[19:00] [Unknown] These were more like guidelines.

[19:09] [Ed] But as we’ve become more comfortable, we definitely kind of pulled the governor off and more than happy to pedal the metal.

[19:20] [Unknown] The second con is this relationship interaction may feel a bit insensitive to you.
If you need more time for familiarity, because it is a very direct approach.

[19:41] [Ed] Right.

[19:42] [Phoebe] A very confident…
Very transactional.
Right.

[19:48] [Unknown] Right.

[19:51] [Ed] I brought my wife.
Did you bring yours?

[19:53] [Unknown] Right.

[19:54] [Phoebe] Which kind of strips off all the whole friendliness and feeling, you know, that…
I mean, people are obviously still very respectful.
And nice and courteous.
Although, I will say, our very first DTF couple, it was pretty transactional.
They were nice.
They did have food for us.
Yeah.
But it was like, oh, you’ve taken three bites of your snack?
Great.

[20:19] [Ed] Let’s go to the bedroom.

[20:20] [Phoebe] They were like, they had busy schedules.
They had a system that works for them.
We were used.

[20:27] [Ed] It was terrible.
We were used.

[20:31] [Unknown] So, yeah.

[20:35] [Phoebe] It was interesting.
It was fun.
But it was.
It tended to be a little more transactional.
They were nice.
They weren’t…
I’m not saying they weren’t insensitive in any regard.

[20:47] [Ed] Yeah.
But we arrived at their house.
And it was clear that we were there for a purpose.

[20:56] [Unknown] Yeah.

[20:57] [Ed] Right?
Like, it wasn’t a random social gathering.
There wasn’t the whole…
…and to clarify a little bit.
We had met them…
…and played with them before.

[21:08] [Unknown] Oh, we did?

[21:10] [Ed] Yes.
The house party with the red light.
Oh, with the red light.
In Midtown.
And we went there.

[21:17] [Unknown] You’re gonna have to edit that Midtown part out.

[21:22] [Ed] No, everybody knows we live in Sacramento.

[21:24] [Unknown] Yeah, but the red light in Midtown?

[21:29] [Phoebe] Oh, nobody’s gonna know that.
All right, fine.

[21:33] [Ed] I’m leaving that in.
I may leave this whole thing in.

[21:38] [Phoebe] Oh, my gosh.

[21:39] [Unknown] I’m gonna rest.

[21:40] [Ed] But anyway, we met them at a house party in Midtown.
And it was…
It was a little strange.
But…
The party was a little strange.
Why was it strange?
It was kind of a weird party.

[22:00] [Unknown] I think people were too drunk.

[22:02] [Ed] Oh.
I think that was part of it.
But we had a good time.
Yeah.
And we had seen them and met them a couple other times before this.
But we played on the same bed with them.

[22:16] [Unknown] We’re like…

[22:18] [Ed] It was kind of fun.

[22:20] [Unknown] We might do them again.

[22:23] [Ed] And they called us out of the blue.
And we got together.
So, showing up at their house.

[22:30] [Unknown] Yeah.

[22:31] [Ed] And it wasn’t a super pole party.
It wasn’t some specific social engagement.
This was literally, hey, you want to come over to our house?
Well, what else are you gonna do?

[22:43] [Phoebe] Right.

[22:44] [Unknown] Right.

[22:45] [Ed] Yeah.
There’s a goal here.

[22:47] [Phoebe] There’s a goal.

[22:50] [Unknown] To have fun.

[22:54] [Ed] What’s that like?
I’m…
Fun?

[22:58] [Phoebe] Fun.
I know.
It’s devoid of about a year going on a year and a half now.

[23:04] [Ed] I feel like this podcast is a little bit of a tease.
Not only to us, but to all of our listeners as well.

[23:16] [Unknown] I know.

[23:17] [Ed] Imagine a world where people can get together and have sex.

[23:23] [Phoebe] Keep going.
This sounded good.
Keep going.
Keep going.
Please, take me there.

[23:28] [Unknown] Please, count God.

[23:31] [Phoebe] Follow me.
All right, everyone.
All in all.
Do what’s best for you and your partner.
You may start out wanting more of a friendship, but migrate to not so much.
We have found couples that start out making fast friends with another couple only to have it peter out.
Some couples absolutely need to have both lives separate due to their careers and public profile.
The goal is to navigate these waters in the best way.
That honors your relationship and is respectful of your friends or soon to be friends no more.
Honestly, as difficult as it can be at times is truly your best foot forward when navigating your wants, needs and desires.

[24:30] [Ed] And in this lifestyle, there’s someone out there for everyone.
Yes.

[24:38] [Unknown] Do what’s best for you.
Yes.

[24:41] [Ed] Before you turn off our podcast to take care of all the vanilla things pulling you away, please reach out and give us a review.
I know, mashing a star is so much easier, but a review is so much better for sharing your love of what we’re doing with others.

[25:01] [Unknown] We would appreciate it.

[25:03] [Ed] If you want to share a personal story, ask us questions or share your comments.
You can contact us at SwingerUniversity at gmail.com.
Check us out at SwingerUniversity.com where you can find links to our Twitter and Instagram feeds.

[25:23] [Unknown] Thank you for listening to SwingerUniversity, your horizontal enrichment podcast.
Oh, one last thing before you go.

[25:47] [Ed] If this episode helped you in any way, the single best thing you can do to support the show is leaving a rating and review.
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We’ll see you again soon.