BDSM, Exploring the Exciting World with Dr. Tiffany “K.”

[00:00] [Guest] Hi, this is Phoebe.
And this is Ed.

[00:02] [Ed] Today we’re talking to Dr. Tiffany K about the world of BDSM and Kink.
She’s an expert in her field and we’re very excited to interview her about a topic we know

[00:14] [Unknown] very little about. Dr. Tiffany K is based in Los Angeles and she’s a certified holistic

[00:29] [Ed] sexual educator and board certified sexologist who specializes in Kink education and Dom sub-dynamics
within her private consulting practice. She has her doctor of education, has been publishing
scholarly works, non-fiction articles, and erotica novella since 2016. Her work is deeply rooted
in embodiment, holistic principles, and empowering people to live authentically. Dr. K is someone who
is not only a proud feminist but who is intimately familiar with alternative lifestyles and a member
of the Kink BDSM community for well over a decade. As a pansexual, she also integrates LGBTQ

[01:13] [Unknown] insights with cultural understanding. As a parent, she also understands the stigma around being

[01:19] [Ed] true to yourself while maintaining a family and professional life. Her mission is to de-stigmatize
alternative lifestyles and sexuality by holding a space for inclusion and acceptance for all
sexualities and identities. She loves speaking about alternative lifestyles, tantra, consensual
nomenogamy, gender, and LGBTQ studies. She has two podcasts, the submissive next door where she
talks about Dom sub-dynamics, communication, consent, safety, and the other one is More Than Sex,
which is about the study of sex from historical literacy and scientific perspectives for those
people that are like very intellectual and like the brain stuff. When she’s not writing,
traveling, researching, or teaching, she’s creating enchantingly provocative art projects and
performances. Of course, you’re going to have all of her links in our show notes, but you can visit

[02:16] [Unknown] her on KIPANI.life. Of course, she’s on YouTube and Twitter and Instagram and we will put those

[02:28] [Ed] in our show notes. So welcome, welcome, welcome. Dr. Tiffany K, we’re so excited. You’re here.

[02:35] [Phoebe] Thank you so much for having me. I am very excited to be here and I know where he’s about being
worse. I mean, we’re adults, right? I go to the barbie now and again to say it’s all good.

[02:46] [Ed] So tell us, we are newbies to King and BDSM. We, I really kind of wanted to start at the 30,000
foot view of BDSM, but then I started doing a little research and conversations that we had
with some friends last night led me to some little more specific questions, but we will start,
we’ll start easy like what is BDSM? What is the lifestyle of BDSM and what is role play?

[03:16] [Phoebe] So BDSM is something that depending on who you’re talking to is going to mean something a little
bit different. So we have BDSM. It’s bondage dominance or discipline as well as the S sometimes
we’ll stand for submission or sadism and then of course last one can sometimes be master or
massacism. So it’s much more of a mindset and that’s the way I always present it in any of my
conferences or any of the discussions I have with others. It is not all about sex. It is very much
a sensory, it’s a way of exploring the different senses in our body and exploring what we are
capable of within a dynamic. So for some, that may mean going into a scene and it’s something
that they compartmentalize and they have BDSM scenes that are much more one off here and there
when they can get their sort of thing. You also have BDSM dynamics or DS dynamics depending on
again who you’re talking to. I prefer DS dynamic because BDSM to me is much more of a part of
a DS dynamic. You can have a DS dynamic and not have bondage in it or role play or any type of
play impact and things like that. Most people hear BDSM and they think, oh you like to be
logged and whipped and all of that. Many people don’t. Many people it is much more of a set role
for each person and it can be even multiple people. It can be two people. There are definitely
polydynamics as well that incorporate DS dynamics. But the gist of it is a mindset that you’re going

[04:55] [Unknown] into. You go into subspace and people may call that just sort of like a certain mentality that they
take on or persona that they take on and it’s almost like a meditation type space for them.

[05:09] [Phoebe] For the submissive or the person that is taking the role of a bottom, they are much more
apt to want to serve in some way or they may be a brat. There’s many different types of dynamics
within that that incorporate the BDSM aspect. Most dungeons incorporate the bondage and the
rope play and impact play aspects of it. But other places that you can go are things like play houses
that may incorporate other aspects that allow you to do more service style dominance and sufficient.
So yeah, it’s like I said, depending on who you’re talking to, you’re going to get different answers.
There is a plethora of categories that go along with all of these as well. Some people tend to lean
towards much more soft type play or like a soft DOM in soft sub sort of situation. Other ones
are they call them hard DOM’s or hard subs or slaves. There’s no right or wrong way to do it. And
it’s all about communication making sure that you’re being very upfront and honest about what
you’re seeking out of that relationship or seeking out of that scene and making sure that you have
that trust in place. Without that trust, things can go all kinds of sideways. But you want to make
sure that you have those types of conversations up front. You do your negotiation. And yeah,
it’s really about having that freedom to play with your partner, but also getting something out of
it. And there’s a lot of the psychology that goes in behind it as well. Why people seek it out.
What it is that they’re actually trying to get out of it from the deeper mental aspect of it.
But at the end of the day, it’s really more about just that that role between you two that you’ve
agreed upon and making sure that everybody is taking care of in the proper way, if that makes sense.

[06:58] [Ed] Yeah. Yeah, that absolutely does. It does. And do different people negotiate how they
want to… It sounds like, oh gosh, it’s so complex. I don’t even know how to phrase my question.

[07:14] [Unknown] It sounds like you could live it as a lifestyle day to day. Or you could just have a set of

[07:24] [Ed] scenes or dates or time that you set aside during the week. Like every Wednesday,
this is what you do from five to 10, you know, after work. Or you do it three times a week or whatever.
Are those two different dynamics that happen? Is it usually like one or the other or can they blend

[07:44] [Phoebe] or? Again, it’s a very complicated sort of question because it’s all dependent. One thing that
always sticks out in my mind and there’s another educator out there. She’s phenomenal.

[07:58] [Guest] Highly recommend her podcast as well. Sunny Megatron. American sex podcast. I love her phrase

[08:04] [Phoebe] of kink is customizable. DS is customizable. So there is no right or wrong way. So you develop
something that makes sense for you and your partner and your current life. For a lot of people
who have day jobs or who are very much in the public eye, for example, let’s say there’s a politician.
I’m not going to name names, but let’s say there’s a politician. And they have a life that they can’t
fully express themselves in the way that they want to. So they have set times aside each week that
they can guarantee that, okay, this is what I’m going to do at this time. And it acts as sort of an
anchor for many people, especially for those with ADHD. There’s actually some really interesting
studies that the Kinsey Institute helped to sponsor that is showing really that a lot of people
that are in both the kink as well as the BDSM and the DS lifestyles, there’s a surprisingly large
number of them that have ADHD or that are neurodivergent in some way. And it really helps them to have
an anchor point to know that, okay, at this day, it creates a routine for them that they can
always count on. And they have sort of a coach or a manager, the dominant, for example,
that is there helping to provide this space and helping them to practice these different
situations with different sensory development exercises, which would be impact play or other
types of play in terms of the types of times that people can do it. For some, it’s a lifestyle,
and for some, it’s absolutely just a, on the weekends, when they can get their sort of thing,
and they just like to have fun and they have their scene. For other people, like myself, it’s much more
of an orientation. And there’s an entire study going on right now, again, sponsored by the Kinsey
Institute, that is showing that more, so many people that are, they don’t call it a lifestyle,
it’s much more of an orientation, because they’re not looking at the gender that they’re playing with,
or the gender of their partner. It’s that I feel I’m submissive, or I feel that I am a dominant.
And it can be any gender, it doesn’t matter to them as long as there is the trust and the

[10:18] [Unknown] negotiation, and everyone’s needs are being met. So for them, it’s much more of a 24-7,

[10:25] [Phoebe] which is the type of dynamic that I’m in. It’s a 24-7 lifestyle, where each day, from morning till
night, like there is a certain set of, I don’t want to call them necessarily rules, but I have tasks
that I perform, I have tasks that I keep to, that I’ve asked for, because they know that they
help me to better myself each day, and my dominant helps to keep me in line, and we do a praise,
much more of a praise style relationship, there is no negative feedback, it’s all positive reinforcement,

[10:56] [Unknown] so that’s something that we agree to upon, so yeah, it can be anything you want it to be.
It’s fabulous, I, Ed was talking about how the movie,

[11:10] [Guest] Well, I’ll launch into that question, because it’s a controversial question.

[11:14] [Ed] Yeah, I never thought, well, let’s, yeah, let’s go ahead.
We could launch into it, because it kind of plays into that question.

[11:23] [Guest] So we deal with stigma all the time in the lifestyle, in the swing lifestyle, and you know,
everybody’s first perception, of course, is, you know, Austin Powers, and keys in a fish bowl,

[11:35] [Unknown] and you know, swapping is really more of less of a consensual activity and more of, well,

[11:41] [Guest] this is just who I got paired up with, and you know, this is just what I, my lot for the evening.
So we’re constantly battling that stigma, and then the negative connotation that the word

[11:51] [Unknown] swinger even has. So I’ll throw it out there, because I know this is a controversial topic, and a

[11:56] [Guest] lot of people have very strong opinions about it in the, the King and BDSM.
50 Shades of Grey has set, I know, see, I saw your face do that, that expression, right?
That’s the public’s first impression of, of this community, and all of the stigma and misconceptions,
and you know, whatever, Hollywood took, took their, well, they took some liberties with that.
So how do you, how do you re-educate people? How are you fighting that to help bring kind
of the positive aspects of it, instead of that really weird skewed view that, that movie portrayed?

[12:42] [Phoebe] Oh, I love this question. I get this question a lot. It’s, so I have a very,
I have a very specific sort of viewpoint on it, and it’s not liked by everybody, but I’ll explain
it a little bit. 50 Shades of Grey, it absolutely is number one, not anywhere close to what an
actual DS dynamic looks like. It is atrocious on so many levels. Having said that, knowing the
author of that book and knowing that she wasn’t in the lifestyle, she did research to the point of
like she went to a club, she read about some things, and being an erotic writer myself, I’m involved
in a lot of these erotic groups, people that are, you know, always helping to support each other
and try to figure out how to, how to market their next book, and so many of them look at 50 Shades,
and it’s like, oh, but that, that book, it launched, you know, all of these, these other ideas and
other books and open the door to being able to write about taboo subjects and BDSM, and they’re,
they think that that’s the way that you’re supposed to write it, and they don’t understand,
because they’re not part of the lifestyle, right? We always have our, our idea in the back of our
head from that, but there’s another movie that came out years ago called The Secretary. Yes.
And The Secretary, I mean, that’s another one that’s kind of like, is it hot? Yeah, but is it
right? No. So you feel kind of weird about it. Right. So with 50 Shades, I think on one hand,
on a very small hand, it opened the door to conversation, and it made it more of a topic that was
okay to talk about. Right. You know, it was something that at least opened a door. So on that aspect,
it did good, but on the other aspect, it’s like, okay, now all these educators, and especially
kink educators, we’re trying to clean up a mess that people think about when they hear BDSM,

[14:45] [Guest] and that’s the first place that their brain goes. Yeah. Yeah. There was no consent. There was no

[14:49] [Phoebe] negotiate. I mean, the only negotiation really wasn’t a negotiation in that movie. Yeah. So it’s
the way that I try and help people to understand is listen, it opened your eyes to something new and
exciting that you didn’t think that you would like. Now let’s take that step back and realize just
like porn. Right. You watch porn. Porn is not the way sex is. I am sorry, but it isn’t. So
you see this fantasized version of sex in front of you, and you have to have that literacy of knowing
what is real and what isn’t, and pick out what is it about this that you like, and how do you
incorporate that in a safe way? So it’s really rebaking it down a little bit and teaching a little
bit of media literacy along the way. That’s really the way that I try and help do my part to clean

[15:45] [Guest] up the mess that 50 shades really create. That’s great. Yeah. And so then that goes into my

[15:53] [Ed] question of, you know, diving in and reading more about this community, it seems
much more, it’s richer. It seems like a, like what you said, a lifestyle, a way of
of having a different kind of relationship dynamic with your partner. You can give and provide
something for them. They can give and provide something for you that has different criteria within
the relationship that you negotiate. And it just seems like why not? That sounds so wonderful and

[16:34] [Unknown] enriching and amazing to me. How do you even go about wanting to do that? Where do you start?

[16:43] [Ed] Like, what if one partner says, oh my god, my day is always so stressful. I just want to check
out at the end of the day. I want to, I just don’t want to think about anything. I don’t want to do
anything. I just want to relax. You know, I want everything taken care of for me.
And the other person, maybe they feel the same way. How do you negotiate who gets what and when
because we’re both feeding that emotional bank account, right? And we don’t want one person
to be depleted. So how does that work? How do you even start that conversation?

[17:25] [Guest] All right. We need your help so that your community, the very one you love and have so much fun
with can also find our show. Here’s a really easy way to do that. If you’re listening on Apple
podcast or Spotify, hit that follow button and leave us a rating. If you’re watching on YouTube,

[17:46] [Unknown] subscribe and turn on notifications. We can’t emphasize enough how much this helps the

[17:52] [Guest] Swinger community and it truly is up to you to make that happen. It makes a massive difference

[17:58] [Unknown] and whether new listeners can even find us. And here’s the thing. When someone searches

[18:04] [Guest] Swinger podcast, the algorithm doesn’t care how good our content is or how long we’ve been around.

[18:12] [Unknown] It only cares about ratings and reviews. We’d appreciate it and your community will really
appreciate it. Thanks for listening. The first thing that I usually do, especially with new couples

[18:29] [Phoebe] when I’m working with them in a session is I ask them what it is about the lifestyle. If they’ve
heard about it or if they’ve read about it, you know, whether it’s neurotic or they’ve done research
on their own, what is it that they’re seeking from it? What is it that they’re after in terms of
the time spent together? Is it just they’re after relaxing and they just want things done for them?
Because that’s much more of a, okay, you’re just tired and you want someone to do a little bit of
caretaking and you have to figure out, okay, what can you get out of it by reciprocating that in
some way? And you look at a BDS dynamic as a, for me, it’s more of a flow of energy.
When one is kind of not carrying the load on their side, the other one immediately feels it,
no different than any other relationship, you have to have that level of communication and

[19:21] [Unknown] understanding. And the negotiation, there’s, I really like lists. I’m a big one for lists and

[19:28] [Phoebe] figuring out, okay, what is something that I’m after? What is, you know, what’s my yes-no maybe
and everything in between? And figuring out not just this actual side of it, but what about the
at-home side of it? You know, are you going to be the one that takes care of the laundry and what
kind of a reward do I get if I do the laundry or what kind of reward or what kind of punishment?
Or maybe the reward is the punishment. All these different things to kind of help keep the

[19:56] [Unknown] house in order, if that’s something that’s a goal. And that’s another really big question to

[20:02] [Phoebe] ask yourselves is what is the goal you’re trying to reach with this relationship? And it’s really
a goal-oriented type of dynamic, right? So my goal, for example, when, I mean, I first got together
with my partner, my current partner, one of my biggest goals was trying to make sure I don’t
overload myself. I have, you know, 10 projects, but I only have time for five. And how do I keep my
brain on track, which is these five this week? So we would have a dynamic where, okay, if I deviated
at any point, then I would have a gold star taken away. And that was like my big thing. I’m a big
one for silly stuff. You know, I like my gold stars. And if I did really good that week, I got
gold stars and I got a spanking. And it was really fun. And I started being like, oh, this is
exciting. I can, I have something to look forward to. And that was how we developed our relationship
by adding one thing at a time. One big thing I see happen a lot with new people is what happens
is frenzy. They go into sub frenzy or DOM frenzy and they want to do everything all at once.
And they want to have a million tasks laid out further submissive for the submissive wants to
take on, you know, 40 of them on tasks. And they jump right into it without really thinking it

[21:22] [Unknown] through. Can I do this? And they get burnt out. And then they feel like a lot of animosity towards

[21:29] [Phoebe] their partner, like, or they feel bad about themselves. Like I couldn’t do this. What’s wrong with
me? Starting with one thing at a time, incorporating one thing a week or one thing a month,
until that feels good. And you know that it’s a habit at that point and continuing to move from
there. But the biggest one is just constant communication. Check in every day, especially if you’re
new. Check in with your partner every day with three very simple questions. How are you today?
What did I do that made you feel supported today? What can I do different tomorrow?
Those three things every day, I guarantee you you will get so much good feedback that you had,

[22:10] [Unknown] you never would have thought that you needed. And it’s going to help you be in a better
relationship and a better dynamic the next day. My mind is just blown. I had no idea
that this was part of the BDSM world. Yeah, it’s interesting. When you first

[22:31] [Guest] described it, well, the answer is complicated. Or the dom sub world. I’m probably using the wrong

[22:35] [Ed] term there. The DS dynamic. DS dynamic. We start to get our lingo straight. It’s funny because we’re

[22:41] [Guest] very steeped and in swing or lingo. And this is a tangential world. Like they do overlap a little
bit. Like we see a fair amount of fetish play and DS dynamic play that kind of sprinkles into

[23:00] [Unknown] the lifestyle occasionally when you run across people who are into that. I love what you’re talking

[23:07] [Guest] about in terms of setting healthy goals or realistic sets of tasks. And it plays into a lot of the
whole establishing patterns or establishing new behaviors. And that if you want to have a routine
or you want to build a new skill that you set aside a time each particular day. And you dedicate
that time each day. And you start simple. And it’s that repetition that builds the habit. And
it’s that healthy habit that you can establish. And then once you’ve got that established,
then you can add another layer to it. And you can establish a new habit.
This goes to anything. You want to learn how to speak a different language or read more
that healthy habit. So it makes sense especially in an environment where you may feel overwhelmed or
you do need to decompress or you want to have more sexy time with your partner to establish
realistic things, right? I can picture someone going crazy and it’s like, okay, we’re going to do a
different scene every day. There’s costumes and lighting. And here’s your script. That could get

[24:22] [Ed] crazy like really quick. Yeah. Yeah. So now the dynamic is different from BDSM or kink or
as kink and BDSM like on the same plane. Are they similar? Those two. They overlap. It’s kind of

[24:43] [Phoebe] like a really big venn diagram. Like there’s certain things that definitely overlap with each other
and there’s other things that are completely separate. So BDSM is very much what a lot of people
would consider part like covering the DS dynamic. Kink is like the bigger like the house that
everything kind of sits in. Because kink really, I mean, if you think about the term of kink,
it’s much more, it’s the freedom to play as an adult. It is ability to just, you know,

[25:14] [Unknown] it can be anything. It doesn’t have to necessarily be, you know, something that is sexual,

[25:20] [Phoebe] but kink is very much something that elicits some sort of a pleasurable sensation within the body.

[25:26] [Ed] And it doesn’t sex. So then swinging would also could should also fall under that dynamic. I

[25:34] [Guest] would think it was. That’s a bit of a kink, if you will, like watching your partner or somebody else.

[25:40] [Phoebe] Yeah. That would be at least for me, the times that I’ve experienced it. I’m both an exhibitionist and
a lawyer. I love that lifestyle. I love going, I miss play parties. I haven’t been in so long.
But it’s, yeah, we considered it a kink for us to be within that situation and being able to
watch, you know, partner or be watched by a partner. Right. And yeah, so yeah, kink is that
that house that everything kind of sits in and then BDSM and DS or kind of the, the overlapping

[26:12] [Guest] couples that live within the house. I like that, that analogy. It makes me think of like a really
big house party and you kind of walk from from room and you’re like, ooh, what’s in this room?
And then sometimes the doors, the adjoining doors bust open and then things cross over.

[26:27] [Unknown] I like that. I like that.
I, so then when you, so now that we’ve talked about that relationship dynamic,

[26:39] [Ed] I want to talk about the sexual dynamic and more of what happens with negotiating that aspect
of the relationship with your partner and then negotiating that with other people. Like,

[26:55] [Unknown] if you go to a playhouse or if you go to a dungeon, how, how do, how does all of that happen?

[27:05] [Ed] I mean, specifically, I’m sorry, like, I’m thinking communication, I’m thinking drug use,

[27:12] [Unknown] I’m thinking rules, I’m thinking safety. Oh, absolutely. Safety within the community safety is

[27:21] [Phoebe] the utmost consent is the utmost. It is, especially when you go to a good dungeon.
I’ve certainly been to some not so great, great places before too. And where you just walk in and

[27:32] [Unknown] immediately turn your butt around and you walk right back out. But some of the, the better ones,

[27:37] [Phoebe] it’s, they have, you know, the dungeon masters, you know, dungeon master to me is very different
from a D&D game, for sure. But it’s, you have the, quote unquote, bouncer’s and things like that,
that walk around and ensure, hey, it’s everybody okay, it’s everybody have what they need.
And a lot of those places, sex, a lot of times isn’t even going on. It’s the sensory aspect
where you go and you, there’s, there’s a backup. There’s a few different types of ways to,
to go about it. So you go, and first of all, if you’re in a dynamic, you have the negotiation talk,
you discuss, especially, you know, yes, no, maybe, what are you okay with? What are you not okay with?
What are the absolute, you know, hard limits? You have safe words established or some sort of a
safety signaling system. I have both safety words that I recommend to my clients as well as a
nonverbal signaling system. Sometimes you may be gagged. Sometimes you may just be so ridiculously
caught up in the moment. You can’t even find your voice. So you need to have a way. Mine is a
five finger rule. Other people may have a, like a squishy ball or some sort of a tool that they
have in their hand. And if they drop it, everything is done. That’s like the signal.
So there’s a lot of different ways that you, you can have the safety measures put into place.
You obviously discuss well in advance, you know, things like, when was the last time you had SDD
testing? Can you show me, you know, proof that you’ve had this testing if there’s going to be

[29:12] [Unknown] sexual things involved or fluid exchange happening? What sort of precautions are we going to be taking?

[29:19] [Phoebe] What are you trying to get out of this scene? Is this a scene that you’re trying, you know, are
there going to be triggers I need to know about? Especially for the more edge play type scenes,
those are things like interrogation scenes, CNC scenes, or consensual non-consent.
Those are very, you know, triggers can happen for sure. And you really want to make sure you

[29:43] [Unknown] localized what those triggers are. And then you have situations where you go to a dungeon.

[29:51] [Phoebe] There’s things like pick up play, pick up play scenes that you can get involved in where you
find somebody there. You go into a room or while you chat for a little while, you kind of vet
them out. You get to know them a little bit. You go into a room, you negotiate what you want out
of that scene and things. If your partner is there, sometimes it may be a double dom scene.
So you have, for example, as a submissive, you would have your dominant there and the ideas that you
want to be dominated by two doms. Maybe it’s a male and a female, two males, two females, whatever.
And you discuss what that role is going to look like. Everyone kind of knows what their
expectations are of the scene. And you proceed to have your scene. But again, not all the time sex
is going to be involved. Sometimes it’s a flogging, it’s a whipping interrogation, humiliation,
degradation, anything like that can happen during those types of scenes. And then another thing
that you have to discuss is aftercare. How do you need to be taken care of afterwards? What is it
that you need? Do you need food? Do you need water? Do you just need to be left alone in a room?
And let, you know, if you’re going to cry, like, do I need to be aware that emotional things
may happen? And are you okay if you’re crying? How can I help you through that? And then
do you want to be called afterwards? Do you want me to check in on you? And aftercare can last
an hour after the scene, it can last a week after the scene. Do you want me to call you and check
in on you a week later? Things like that that most people don’t necessarily think about. And then
they get involved and they’re like, wow, I feel really weird after this. What’s wrong with that?
Chances are aftercare was not fully discussed afterwards. So yeah, there’s a lot of those

[31:35] [Ed] different things that can, that go on with it. How, how often do couples go to a venue where they
are, you know, discussing a scene that they want to do, you know, with somebody else that

[31:54] [Unknown] they’re not doing with just their partner? And I’m fascinated by that because, you know, as a

[32:02] [Ed] swinger, you go with your partner. It’s so different. I mean, we have our sets of rules, you know,
consent and you know, touching without, but these rules, they’re, they’re so well known that
they’re really just not spoken anymore. So no one, there’s no, there’s nothing sexy about it.
There’s no mental stimulation about discussing what you like, you know, I like this type of

[32:35] [Unknown] thing to happen. I want, you know, can I say things on YouTube?

[32:41] [Ed] Trying to keep it a little clean, but you know, I want this type of stimulation on this part of
my body, right? Or when I, and I like this, and I like it, you know, in this method or this way
with this type of pressure, none of that is discussed in, in this winging world. Yeah.
If you have dedicated partners, play partners that you that are close knit, but typically,
when you go to a party, none of that is discussed. And it’s, it’s fine. It’s just, I know I have a
certain tone to my voice. I guess it’s because I’m, I’m feeling a little disappointment in that
because it’s, it’s something that I would prefer that happened as I’ve progressed in the lifestyle.
Not that that’s good or bad, it’s just the, the BDSWM world is starting to sound more appealing to
me because of that intellectual component, the ability to stand in your own person and,
and, and with that confidence and ask for what you want and to know what you need and to be able
to express that and to be able to surrender to that is, is very powerful and freeing and oh my

[33:53] [Unknown] god, it’s so exciting. So I think we’re going to be signing up for a different kind of website

[33:59] [Phoebe] after this. It’s different for everybody. I know some people, I’ll give you an example. My,
my partner and I, we tried to go like twice a month where we could go to a dungeon. It was more
of a, it was a mansion that was in the Hollywood Hills that was well known in the, in the community,
both in the swinging community as well as the BDSM community because they had a separate room
that was all dungeon and then the rest of the house was like a playhouse. And before this was
pretty pandemic. So it was, it was something that we, we did, to me, twice a month was pretty frequent
but certainly people that are in other types of dynamics that are distance dynamics. A lot of
people in BDSM and in DS dynamics are very much at a distance where they’re across country,
some of them are across continents. And that’s how my partner and I met, we were originally,
when we first got together before we got married, we were contracted Dom and Sub. And we lived eight
hours away. So it was this understanding that, okay, we can’t always be together but I know that
the sensation play is something that you really need. I’m okay if you want to go and have a pick-up
play session. You know, I, I would like to know beforehand if you’re planning on having sex with
that person. But if you’re going to have a pick-up play session and you just need to get that out,

[35:17] [Unknown] you know, you just need to go vlog somebody, have your negotiation, go have a great time,

[35:22] [Phoebe] can’t wait to hear about it. You know, it’s very, very much compersion at that point. Yes.
And a lot of them in a lot of us in the DS dynamics, some are very much possessive and they,
they don’t want to share in that way. And they just go and they prefer to use the facilities
and be watched rather than have anybody else be able to touch their submissive. But one thing I,
I have to say, I love about one of the biggest things that was a turn on to me about being in a
BDSM dynamic was when we would go to a playhouse or we would go out into the community and see people,
no one would come up to me and just immediately start talking to me. They would go to my dominant
first and say, may I speak with her? That was a turn on to me because there was so much respect in
that of, is it okay if I, if I have this conversation? And he would always look at me and say,
are you okay with this? And it was just that level of like, wow, I’m being, I’m being taken care
of if I’m uncomfortable. I give the signal and we’re out. It was, it’s very, very nice. So,
yeah, some, some people in, in distance relationships, they may go out once or twice a month. They
may have closer partners that are just strictly play, play partners or just scene partners.
But for the most part, it’s, it’s just different for everybody. It’s, it’s whatever you want it to be.

[36:56] [Guest] Here’s why we sail on Virgin. It’s adults only. No kids screaming at breakfast, no family

[37:05] [Unknown] buffet lines, just champagne at noon, late night pool parties and people who actually want to be

[37:13] [Guest] there. The vibe, think boutique hotel that happens to float. Tattoo parlors, drag brunch, restaurants,
you’d actually pay for on land. Plus, when you’re looking to connect with other couples who know
how to have fun, let’s just say Virgin attracts a very specific type of adventurous.
No wonder bread cruisers here, just your people.

[37:42] [Ed] It seems like the communication is at a much higher level in your community, which I would imagine
brings that community together in a tighter, more of a bonded way. It, our community is,
is very close and tight in it as well, but it lacks that explicit type of communication and,
and sometimes the, the events are more party and less. Yeah, and I think we were talking about this

[38:22] [Unknown] today and before the interview, in just how, how comforting and refreshing it would be if we,

[38:30] [Guest] if we were better at having those kind of upfront conversations, how much better would the
experiences be if that negotiation happened and how sexy would it be to kind of do that foreplay,
that mental foreplay, that conversation foreplay, to kind of go, oh, this is what’s on the table for
tonight. We don’t do as good a job as swingers as we probably could and I think we could learn

[38:56] [Unknown] something from the, the DS community for that aspect. It’s, it’s interesting because this kind of
plays into one of the next things we were going to talk to you about. And that is, it’s almost
ritualistic. There’s a certain ritual to that negotiation upfront, the conversation, the buildup

[39:19] [Guest] and then of course the play session and you describe the aftercare,
describe to us some of that, that ritual and, and that headspace that you get into for that ritual.

[39:31] [Phoebe] Oh, this is one of my favorite topics. The rituals are absolutely everything. It, there’s so much
ritual within the, the, both the BDSM, the DS, the King World. It, that is one of the biggest drawing
points for me and what seems to be a big drawing point for many others. And they, a lot of people
actually from the Tantra communities find an overlap within it as well because Tantra is very
ritualistic. It’s embodiment. You have to get within yourself, you’re focused on your sensations,
on everything going on in here, more than what’s going on in your head. And that’s very, very much
in line with being in subspace, in DOM space. You have to be within your body and sharing this
energy with your partner or partners in order to make that experience what it absolutely can be

[40:22] [Unknown] and should be. And when it comes to rituals, I mean, you could certainly look at negotiation,

[40:28] [Phoebe] at vetting, negotiation, consent and all of that as part of the ritual aspect, the precinct
during the scene, post scene, aftercare. And then within the scene, there can be several different
rituals as well. A ritual can be your space that you’re in. You walk into your space and you want
to feel sexy when you’re in that space, getting ready to go through whatever scene you’re going to be
going through. You want things that are maybe comforting or maybe something that’s leather and
chains, whatever your vibe is, the space can be part of that ritual. One thing that my partner and I
continue to do, and many people that are collared within the community, there’s a collaring ceremony
when you first get your collar, and then there can be a ceremony for taking the collar off as well
as placing it back on. Mine, we have a ceremony where I recite a creed, and it’s something very
personal between the two of us, where I am devoting my surrender and my submission to my dominant.
Anytime this collar gets put back on my neck, and it’s like a reaffirmation of our dynamic,
of our understanding of the consent. Every day, I’m giving him consent in some way that this is
something that I want. I’m still happy doing this. And at any point, I know I can take that back and
say, I’m done. I can’t do this right now. I can’t do this today. So there’s so much ritual in it,
and it’s, oh god, I love the vlogging rituals. I love so much about it. It’s just, it’s fabulous.

[42:01] [Ed] I do. I, oh my gosh, when that was the first I’d ever, experience I’d ever seen of, you know,
in the King or BDSM world, was, was vlogging at an event, and I was just fascinated, and just,
I felt so alive, just watching it. I remember my, my skin was just tingling, and I,
I had asked the gentleman who was, who’s doing the vlogging of this woman that was on the
St. Andrews cross, if I could touch, and he motioned to me the rabbit skin for mitt. And so then he
handed that to me, and he said, you know, that rub her hair when I’m, when I tell you to. So I got
to do that, and I was like, oh my god, this is amazing. And it was something about that energy
between him and her and me, and being part of this dance was, oh my god, it was a high. I’ve,
you know, just, those are the kind of highs I really, really love. It’s just not like any other
kind of high. And every time there’s a party that we go to, or someone is very good with that
dynamic, it’s, it’s magical. We sat and observed one last weekend, the interaction between them
for 20 minutes. And he, I know, it was, oh my god, it was amazing. And then at one point, you know,
then they took breaks, and he’d give her some care, and she, she, you know, lean up and they’d
kiss, and they heat caress her, and they’d talk, and he’d say little words to her, and then she’d go
back down on the bed, and then he’d start again. And I was like, oh my god, it’s amazing. Oh my god,

[43:52] [Guest] so cool. I was just, ugh. The interplay with them was, was, it was very sensual and very touching.
It didn’t hurt that they were also very good looking. Like,

[44:07] [Ed] but, but even then, I just the act of something about that type of pleasure. I don’t know. It really

[44:16] [Unknown] is, is arousing to me. And I, getting back to, I think we could be better swingers by doing better,
having better communication, having, making better requests, or more straightforward requests,

[44:36] [Ed] would probably make our experience much nicer. Right. But I will say, it, it is, it is challenging
when you go to some of these events because they tend to be very party-centric, where, and I say that,
there’s a social aspect, of course, right? You’re, you’re, you need to, you know, break the eyes,
and people sometimes need a little, you know, alcohol or whatever they’re, they’re taking to,
you know, feel comfortable in a social setting, in their situation, wherever they are in this
way or lifestyle. But then that, that tends to get in the way at some point during the night, where,
you know, they’ve had too much, or they just really can’t communicate to you what, what you want,
or what you, you know, are asking for, and you don’t feel safe that they could provide that.

[45:28] [Unknown] So it’s, it’s a, it’s a tough way to, trying to find a sober singer is very difficult.

[45:39] [Ed] We did it for the first three years of our experience, and, and we, we really like that, and it was
mostly out of my fear of, you know, what was going to happen, right? And I knew that, you know, I,
I need to take care of me first and foremost. I mean, he is, Ed is obviously near, near my side,
but if we’re in a place situation where he happens to glance away and a random hand comes over
or something, I, I need to, you know, and he’s not, he didn’t catch it. I need to be able to,
right? Take care of myself. So I just wanted all of my, my facilities on point, you know, and,
but, you know, lately we’ve, we’ve, um, started to use, you know, alcohol a little bit, like,
drink or two here. And honestly, I think I’m going to stop with that because it’s, it’s okay,

[46:38] [Unknown] but it’s a different type of experience. And I think I want to take our experience somewhere else.
It’s where I’m going with that. Yeah. Yeah. Within the swinging community, there’s definitely more

[46:58] [Guest] of this, you know, party aspect where people are letting their hair down. As a matter of fact,

[47:03] [Unknown] the first couple of years we were there, we were like, this feels like a frat party. You know,

[47:08] [Guest] these are people who are newly empty nasters and they’re letting go, like completely letting go
of everything. Um, we, we found out later that there was more going on than we didn’t know,
but, uh, there definitely is that kind of an aspect. Now what’s interesting is with,
potentially the danger and risk that some of these, um, pain play has, and, and I, I would classify

[47:37] [Unknown] it this way just, but a little bit more of the, um, blood play, for example, or, um, knife play,
where it’s even more risky, where you’re, I mean, you’re potentially exchanging bodily fluids,

[47:50] [Guest] but you’re also penetrating the skin. How, how does the negotiation or how does that conversation

[47:58] [Unknown] go in terms of drug use or alcohol use? Is it frowned upon? Is it even permitted? But it isn’t even

[48:04] [Phoebe] permitted, uh, depending, again, depending on your community, um, and just like with any other
community, you’re going to have great experiences and great places and then you’re going to have
the bad apples that are going to come in and they’re going to create a bad name for the situation.
Um, they’re just recently, but there, there was a, a situation where there was one dominant
that was in, in the community, not in my personal community, but it was across the country.
And, um, he had, taken one, he had three submissives and he had taken one into a room and was out
of a dungeon and had was in this middle of a, of big scene and she was putting her hand up to say
stop and he didn’t stop. The entire community like rallied around her and basically kicked him out
of the community saying you’re no longer welcome here. We’re going to help this girl get, we’re going
to help her to get help. And we’re not going to do this anymore with you. You, you, he was basically
blacklisted because of it. Right. So there, there’s very much a, um, a sense of, of protection
within the community. People are trying to protect one another, um, and because of this stigma,
because of a lot of the, the stuff like you mentioned, some people that are into edge play,
needle play, knife play, um, CNC and things like that. You run the risk just like in the swinger
community of, you know, if, if your local job happens to find out and oh god, what’s going to
happen? You know, you’re going to be persecuted or someone’s going to think you’re a deviant of
some kind. Right. For a long time, BDSM or DS dynamics, dominant submission, um,
sadomasochism was classified in the DSM-5 as a perifilia. So I mean, you had like all of these
things that kind of sat against you and it was just declassified a few years ago. So we’re still
trying to get out from underneath that, that whole that, you know, the, the psychological community
had kind of dug for us. And now that psychologists and, um, therapists and sex therapists and things
are starting to see the benefits of it and how it actually can help a lot of people recover from
trauma and build better lives for themselves, create goals, all of these different things. Um,
it’s, it’s definitely becoming a little bit easier. But in terms of in, in the community itself,
you know, when you’re dealing with, with things like that for negotiation, usually when it comes to
edge play, you’re looking at vetting someone a little bit longer. You want to make sure that you’ve
seen, okay, you, you’re clean, you don’t have any type of, of things going on, you know, no STDs,
you’re taking precautions. Um, the places that do some of those edge plays are usually a very
close-knit community and even to get into a place that is doing edge play like that, they’re vetting

[50:50] [Unknown] you just as much as you’re trying to vet them. And usually people are wearing gloves, people are

[50:55] [Phoebe] wearing masks, like it’s almost like going into a surgical place, like things are sterile,
you’re making sure there’s an autoclave nearby. Um, there’s a lot of things that go into it.
And then there’s also the, rather than jumping the gun and going right into all of that super edge
play stuff. Um, there are things that you can still do in the meantime. There are like, um, acrylic
or dulled wooden knives and things if you’re trying to do knife play for the first time. And there’s
a lot of great Etsy shops out there that make some beautiful ones that you can use to start getting
into that and experimenting with it without it being something that is going to draw the blood.
But even with a paddle, you know, you spank a little bit too hard and you have,
God forbid that someone forgets to remove some rings on their hand and they give you a one good
spank. Um, it’s, you know, it can potentially draw blood. Um, I’ve seen women walk out just black
and blue from the top of the hip all the way down their thigh. And sometimes there is a little bit of
blood. And that’s where after care comes in and all of that. But usually, um, there’s a decent
amount of vetting and whatnot that goes on and you can negotiate that too. Hey, if it looks like
I’m getting too red, if it looks like I’m getting too, um, too much abrasion stop. We’re going to go
ahead and call it a scene. If it’s somebody that you are not really comfortable with just yet to go
that far with. So there’s, it’s a matter of being very open, very, very open with your words with
what you’re after, what you’re okay with and thinking about all of those steps well in advance.
Um, before you get into a scene like that with somebody, it’s, it’s communication on steroids.

[52:39] [Unknown] Like that’s the best way to put it. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. And I, and I think

[52:45] [Guest] there’s, there’s, as you described kind of the, the build up or the, the practice sessions to,
to get to that particular level, I, it, it makes sense that that’s true, not of just the,
the edge play, but even of the, the pain play and the spanking, right? Like you’re going to start with

[53:04] [Unknown] a nice soft flogger and not go straight to the really big wooden paddle. Hey there podcast listeners,

[53:18] [Guest] you’ve been tuning into our episodes. But if you ever wondered about the steamy details of our
adventures, we’re maybe hungry for some sultry erotic stories. Well, guess what? We’ve got
something special just for you. Our exclusive Patreon page, it’s like a VIP pass to the
saucy side of our world. So if you’re ready for an exclusive behind the mic experience,
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[53:57] [Ed] I almost feel like if we started being that direct with our communication, it might make people

[54:04] [Guest] uncomfortable though. Yeah. Because no one’s used to that type of communication in this wing or
world. I, I agree, but I’ll also say we’ve done some things recently where we’ve, we’ve had that
conversation where it’s, hey, you know, if you need to take a breather during one of these sessions,
or something just bothers you, we’re totally okay with you just going, I need a time out.
That’s true. And you can watch the, the relief on, on your, your potential play partner,
your play partner in the room, just like, oh, that’s so good because we were going to give you
the same benefit of the, the doubt and, and, and let you have that. But that communication doesn’t
always happen. And I think, I think it’s important. And I think we could do better at it.

[54:55] [Ed] Yeah. Yeah. I think so too. I, I miss it. It, it, it, it isn’t as often, it isn’t done as often
as I would prefer it. Right. And it’s usually done always in the bedroom with people, especially new
people when you can tell that they’re nervous. I always tell them, you know, basically what,
what Ed said. And I’m always very mindful of the other woman and her facial expressions and
kind of her energy. And I can kind of sense when she’s pulling back or a little nervous about
something. And I’ll, if she doesn’t have the words to say something, I’ll check in with her.
Hey, how you doing? Are you okay? You want to continue? You know, you feel comfortable and she’ll
not her head or say yes or or no. And then we’ll continue. But yeah. Yeah. And, and the dynamic of

[55:56] [Guest] that to, to just kind of round that out, there’s the comfort of knowing that you can say something
like that, which, which I think a lot of swingers are uncomfortable with it. They don’t want to ruin
the mood. They don’t want to like feel like the, or the other couple make them feel awkward or

[56:19] [Ed] who knows or, or they just don’t know what they like. A lot of people don’t know what they like.

[56:25] [Unknown] I mean, there are a lot of things I didn’t know that I liked until like got into swinging. And

[56:31] [Ed] someone else was there and tried something and I went, oh my gosh, that, that was amazing. I didn’t

[56:36] [Unknown] even know I liked that. I would have never even thought of asking for that. So the little,

[56:41] [Ed] you know, accidents, you know, are are are great and kind of fun. If you know, if you’re open to it
because then new things, new experiences happen. I think the last question that I have would just

[56:55] [Guest] kind of round it up is for the swingers that are out there who are maybe interested in, you know,
dipping their toe into the dominant submission. What are some baby steps? What are some like first
things that they could try to see if they like it? And, you know, maybe some beneficial things,
besides the things that we’ve been talking about with communication and negotiation up front,

[57:19] [Unknown] which I think everybody would benefit from that. Maybe you can give us like a few

[57:26] [Guest] doubly things that we could try to see if we like that. I love doubly things.

[57:32] [Phoebe] There’s a few different things that you can do. So if you’re already in an established
relationship and you are looking to experiment just with sensation play and being, you know,
either submissive or dominant, one number one piece of advice is I don’t care whether you are a
brand new person to the DS world or you’ve been doing it for 30 some odd years, you will mess up
and it’s okay. And a DOM is never expected to know everything. You’re going to get into a scene
and typically, you know, the dominant is running the scene of some sort. And there’s moments where
they’re just like, oh shit, I completely forgot what I was going to do next. And they get that
and they’re they start getting worried that the sub is going to have sub drop and they don’t want
to ruin the whole thing. It’s okay. It’s always you’re always going to have another scene. You’re
always going to be able to get back into it. It may take a little finesse, but it’s okay. So that’s
number one is just breathe through it and know that you’re not expected to make it perfect. You’re
just expected to have a good time. And the one thing for for new people, try spanking, you know,
try different different ways of spanking, making sure that you know what feels good on that person’s
body. There’s definitely a lot of good websites out there. There is kink edu, which is a fabulous
website. Or I think it’s kink either kink edu or kink.com. They, Sunny Megetron has stuff on
there. Her website is fabulous for teaching different things. Anytime that you have an opportunity
to go to a class, guarantee you most most areas have some sort of a DS or a BDSM or a kink workshop
that’s going on somewhere. Even if you don’t get to something like that, a tauntra one, it really
works well because it’s going to teach you the same principles for embodiment. But starting slow
with things like like spanking, starting very slow with just feeling your way through what being
a submissive feels like or what being in a dominant role feels like, setting aside a good hour or
two to help get yourself into that space. You know, what does it feel like to kneel? What does it
feel like to just let the world drop off and truly surrender? Practicing some of the wording,
you know, like if you’ve like been called a good girl, you know, how do those honorifics feel?
How does praise feel? Are you tendency to brat out? You know, are you looking more to have that sort
of power exchange of a fight rather than a purely pleasurable experience? I have a tendency to
be a brat sometimes. And yeah, it’s fun. Just kind of poke the bear and see how far you can get
with it. Always with consent, of course, making sure that you understand what your partner is
okay with, like, what’s too far? What isn’t far enough in those types of things? Practicing
your negotiation skills are vital and practicing with each other before you go to a play party?
Absolutely vital. Grabbing it, getting a flag, if you want to try flogging for the first time,
I highly recommend a suede flogger. They are soft, but they can sometimes have a little bit of a bite
to it. I recommend having something soft to help the skin afterwards if you’re going to be playing
a little bit rough. Make sure you have an unscented hyperallergenic lotion to be able to rub into the
skin afterwards. Having that massage is amazing. Keep hydrated. That’s, you know, given always make
sure you’re well hydrated. And in terms of coloring, don’t worry too much about the whole coloring
thing. Not every submissive is colored. Some submissives don’t want to wear a collar at all. They
wear a ring or they wear a bracelet. Some even have a keychain. My first one was a keychain that
it was just a little thing that said owned on it. And I thought it was really cute.
So there’s a lot of different things that you can do in terms of that. And then if you go to a play
party for the first time and you’re looking to be, or if you’re going to a dungeon for the first
time, know that the expectation of sex is very rarely on the table. It’s usually a scene that you
are looking to engage in and you can absolutely, you know, that’s part of the negotiation process.
Are you looking for fluid exchange? Are you looking for sex involved? Are you looking for oral?
Are you looking for touch? What sort of sensations are you looking for? What are you okay with? What do
you need afterwards? And having those conversations with that person before you, you jump the gun into
getting into a play session. Always making sure just that you, you got to be on point with your
communication before you do anything. And then lastly, there’s a lot of great websites out there

[01:02:24] [Unknown] for classes, for online classes. I know the sexual health alliance is one that I always send

[01:02:29] [Phoebe] people to because they have some great workshops. Midori is a fabulous shibari and rope artist.
She comes from Japan and she’s been teaching kink for 30-some odd years. She’s one of the best out

[01:02:43] [Unknown] there and she’s always running classes. She has a patreon as well. Yeah, the one big thing with

[01:02:51] [Phoebe] DS people, with people or anybody in the kink world, we are sex nerds to the nth degree.
So there will be a class, there will be a book, there will be a podcast on something that you’re
looking to get into. And just power is much of it as you can. You can’t get enough of it.

[01:03:15] [Ed] That’s great. That’s great advice. If someone is, you know, we’ve listened to the cool tips and
they’ve jumped in, but they’ve got their head underwater and they can’t get out or they don’t
want to dive into all of the resources out there on the internet because it’s just too overwhelming
and they just really want to talk to you, right? They want to be told what they want to be told,
right? Because we’re all on information overload, you know, all the time and sometimes honestly,
really, I just rather pay somebody who’s an expert in it and just tell me what to do because
I’ll just write it down and I’ll just do it. So what do you have for people where they can come to
for what they want in this? So I have a private practice and my private practice, you can find it

[01:04:05] [Phoebe] on my website. I also have a platform that is where I keep all of my, it’s my patient portal for
everything. All of my private sessions and whatnot are very confidential. I follow all of the
different HIPAA, you know, requirements and things like that and you’re welcome to go there and
you can book a session with me and it will be completely confidential. Anything that I do with
my clients, I always do a very large post client meeting summary where I list all of the resources,
everything that we talked about, goals for the next time and then I put that both in the patient’s
portal as well as sending it to them. So they can find me there, they can also find me on Patreon where
I’m going to be hosting a once a month little kind of Q&A session through Zoom so that if people
do want, it’s kind of like open office hours but if there’s something very specific and intimate

[01:04:58] [Unknown] that they want to discuss with me and their partner or just them on their own trying to get a handle
in the community, they can always book a private session with me as well. Oh, I like that. That’s

[01:05:12] [Ed] pretty cool. That fabulous. Yeah, I like the idea of the list of things to do because I’m a
list person as well and I love being able to go into Patreon during open office hours and
because things come up, right? And that would be awesome. Oh, that’s really cool. I like that

[01:05:30] [Guest] option that you provide for everybody. Thank you very much, Dr. K for being on our show. We appreciate
all of your valuable insights into this new and exciting world of the DS dynamic. Hopefully our
listeners can glean something from it and benefit in their their swinging life and maybe,
maybe swing over to the other side and try some new things in the bedroom either with just their

[01:05:59] [Unknown] partner or with new partners. Thank you so much for having me as always and yeah, anytime you want
me back, I’m happy to swing on over to your side. Yeah, maybe we’ll come up with some add-on classes,

[01:06:16] [Guest] some additional content. We can think of some maybe some more specific stuff that we can get

[01:06:21] [Unknown] into. That’d be fun. Thank you. Thank you again. Oh, one last thing before you go. If this episode

[01:07:12] [Guest] helped you in any way, the single best thing you can do to support the show is leaving a rating
and review. It takes 60 seconds and helps new people find us when they’re searching for
relationship education. And we’ve made it easy. Visit SwingerUniversity.com forward slash review.
All the instructions are there. Thank you for being part of this community. We’ll see you again