What Is Ethical Non-Monogamy (ENM)? A Complete Beginners Guide

[Guest] Welcome to Swinger University, your horizontal enrichment program,[Guest] bringing you an educational podcast about swinging.[Guest] Here are your hosts, Ed and Phoebe.[Unknown] Welcome back to Swinger University.[Ed] I'm Ed.[Phoebe] And this is Phoebe.[Unknown] Today we're going to talk about consensual or ethical non-monogamy.[Ed] How do you define consensual or ethical non-monogamy?[Ed] We cover different types and dive into the upside and downside of the swingers non-monogamy.[Unknown] We'll start off by our definition of non-monogamy.[Phoebe] It is an umbrella term actually for a practice or philosophy of a non-diadic intimate relationship.[Phoebe] It can be sexual, emotional or both.[Phoebe] It does have a negative connotation in the following way,[Phoebe] which is why some people put the word consensual or ethical in front of non-monogamy.[Phoebe] The negative connotation comes from the acceptance that monogamy is the norm.[Unknown] It's moral and it's therefore incorrect wrong or immoral to be non-monogamous.[Unknown] Right.[Unknown] The other connotation with that is being in a monogamous relationship[Ed] but stepping outside the bounds of your relationship without the consent of your partner.[Ed] That's where the consensual non-monogamy comes in,[Ed] but also ethical because you guys are both participating willingly.[Ed] Let's bust into some of the forms of non-monogamy.[Ed] I didn't know about some of these.[Ed] We're aware of a couple because we're in the lifestyle, but…[Ed] Maybe we did some research.[Ed] All right, we'll start with a basic one.[Ed] Casual relationship.[Ed] Two unmarried people, emotional and or sexual with each other.[Ed] It's casual.[Ed] It's casual.[Ed] They may have one or more…[Phoebe] Hello, swipe.[Ed] Next.[Unknown] Hello.[Phoebe] I have Twitter on the brain.[Ed] The other T. Tinder.[Unknown] That's it.[Unknown] I've been tweeting all day, so…[Phoebe] You've got your group marriage.[Phoebe] Several people are considered to be married to one another.[Phoebe] And under group marriage are two different definitions.[Phoebe] You've got your line families,[Phoebe] which is a group marriage intended to outlive its members by adding more spouses.[Phoebe] And then you have poly families, which is similar to group,[Phoebe] but not all partners considered themselves married to all members.[Phoebe] That I didn't know.[Ed] Yes, so it's not legal,[Ed] at least in the United States, to be legally wed to multiple people.[Ed] Right.[Ed] The polygamy aspect,[Ed] but there are plenty of people who basically have long-term,[Unknown] emotional commitments,[Ed] and basically their life partners with multiple people.[Phoebe] But it sounds like there's a hierarchy in there[Phoebe] where you've got those individuals who are actually married to one another[Phoebe] and then those individuals that don't consider themselves married.[Unknown] Right.[Phoebe] Well, actually it says married to all members.[Phoebe] Yeah, I kind of get that.[Phoebe] That makes sense.[Phoebe] You're married to the primary.[Phoebe] You're dedicated to the primary.[Phoebe] You're not dedicated to all.[Phoebe] Right.[Phoebe] Yeah.[Phoebe] That makes sense.[Ed] What are my favorites?[Ed] Group sex or orgies.[Ed] So we've got two or more emphasis on the more.[Phoebe] Yep.[Phoebe] And the next one is also your favorite.[Ed] I do like this one.[Ed] Menage à toi.[Ed] Sexual arrangement between three people can be domestic.[Phoebe] Then you have your open relationship slash marriage[Phoebe] where one or both members is committed in the relationship[Phoebe] and they express freedom to be sexually active with others.[Unknown] And under that comes swinging,[Phoebe] which is similar to the open relationships,[Phoebe] but typically it's an organized social activity[Phoebe] with some form of group sex.[Phoebe] However, I will say in a social setting,[Phoebe] there typically is group sex involved[Phoebe] or somewhere on the premises.[Phoebe] But a lot of the community will get together[Phoebe] and they'll partner off as a three son[Phoebe] or a four son or, you know,[Phoebe] I guess what's considered group sex two or more?[Unknown] Well, there you go.[Ed] Well, yeah, probably three people or more.[Ed] But yeah, the interesting thing is that an open relationship[Ed] is usually kind of loosely defined[Ed] where the partners don't usually play together.[Ed] They're kind of off on their own[Ed] and they can kind of do whatever they want.[Ed] In other words, the door is open to just go.[Ed] Right.[Ed] They think they date separately.[Phoebe] They've got dates.[Unknown] Yeah.[Phoebe] They travel with other partners.[Phoebe] Right.[Ed] Versus swinging, at least from most people that we know[Ed] and ourselves, we practice together.[Ed] So it's all for one and one for all all at the same time.[Unknown] Yep.[Ed] We like to watch.[Phoebe] Then you have polygamy,[Phoebe] one person in relationship has multiple partners[Phoebe] and then you have polyandry[Phoebe] where the woman has multiple husbands,[Phoebe] polygamy where the man has multiple wives,[Phoebe] a plural marriage,[Phoebe] which is a form of polygamy associated[Phoebe] with Latter-day Saint movement[Phoebe] and your last,[Phoebe] well, it's not under polygamy[Phoebe] but there's a last definition called relationship[Phoebe] andarchy.[Phoebe] No one is bound by set rules.[Ed] Open season.[Ed] Everything's just…[Phoebe] Anything.[Ed] On the table.[Phoebe] Which is kind of like…[Phoebe] No boundaries.[Phoebe] Open to me.[Phoebe] So I don't know.[Ed] Yeah, I get the impression[Ed] that this is just free love.[Ed] Like, there's not even established hierarchy[Ed] or relationships.[Ed] It's just…[Phoebe] Like a commune.[Unknown] Free for all.[Ed] No?[Unknown] Yeah.[Phoebe] That could have its pluses and minuses.[Unknown] So some of the upsides are[Phoebe] this allows freedom of exploration[Phoebe] while in a relationship.[Phoebe] It improves communication,[Phoebe] love and commitment.[Phoebe] It stretches your personal growth through self-awareness[Phoebe] and it will magnify[Phoebe] anything that isn't working[Phoebe] or needs to be addressed in your relationship.[Phoebe] So this could be a plus and a minus.[Phoebe] And this upside is…[Phoebe] I'm talking about is the ethical[Phoebe] or consensual nonmenogamy.[Unknown] So obviously the downside is going to be, you know,[Phoebe] anything that isn't working[Phoebe] in your relationship will be magnified.[Unknown] And we've seen, you know,[Phoebe] in several relationships[Phoebe] in the community where[Phoebe] it can be kind of a commitment avoidance.[Phoebe] Escape from reality.[Unknown] It tends to breed in security,[Phoebe] jealousy,[Unknown] martyrdom.[Phoebe] If you're sacrificing yourself[Phoebe] to meet the needs of the other.[Phoebe] And, you know,[Phoebe] historically,[Phoebe] the Swanger community[Phoebe] they are only in it for about 18 months[Phoebe] and then they get out.[Phoebe] So we've seen a lot of couples start and stop.[Unknown] Yeah.[Ed] We've been in it long enough[Ed] to see several generations,[Ed] if you will,[Ed] of couples come through.[Unknown] Yeah.[Unknown] And there are some[Ed] that have been there as long as we have[Ed] and they're still there.[Unknown] I know.[Ed] It's kind of fun.[Phoebe] Nice, it's lovely.[Ed] Some good friends of ours.[Unknown] Mm-hmm.[Ed] Mental hurdles and judgments.[Ed] Well, whether you come out[Ed] or not,[Ed] you may find yourself having these thoughts.[Unknown] You're being taken advantage of.[Ed] We've heard this[Ed] as an observation of other couples.[Unknown] Looks like she's in it[Ed] because he's making her[Ed] or he's kind of getting dragged along[Ed] that kind of a thing.[Ed] Don't you get jealous all the time?[Ed] This is a common thing that we've heard.[Unknown] And the answer is[Ed] not usually,[Ed] but sometimes it happens.[Ed] Now, if you are a jealous person,[Ed] you get jealous all the time.[Ed] Swinging is probably not for you.[Phoebe] Right.[Unknown] That's not gonna work out well.[Ed] STDs or STIs.[Ed] We just did a whole episode on[Unknown] sexually transmitted diseases.[Unknown] Yeah, it's a risk.[Ed] But if you practice safe sex,[Ed] and you're using condoms[Ed] and you're testing yourself frequently,[Ed] you can reduce your risk.[Ed] This is a good one.[Ed] What if your partner leaves you?[Phoebe] It happens sometimes.[Ed] It does happen.[Ed] Now, if we go back to one of our earlier examples,[Unknown] this escape, this feeling of not committed,[Ed] that's probably a sign[Ed] that the relationship's having some issues to begin with.[Unknown] So, if your partner leaves you[Ed] over something like swinging,[Ed] it's probably not the swinging.[Unknown] Right.[Phoebe] It's just kind of accelerated.[Unknown] All right.[Ed] We need your help so that your community,[Ed] the very one you love[Ed] and have so much fun with,[Ed] can also find our show.[Ed] Here's a really easy way to do that.[Ed] If you're listening on Apple Podcasts or Spotify,[Ed] hit that follow button[Ed] and leave us a rating.[Ed] If you're watching on YouTube,[Ed] subscribe and turn on notifications.[Ed] We can't emphasize enough how much this helps the swing[Ed] our community,[Ed] and it truly is up to you to make that happen.[Ed] It makes a massive difference[Ed] in whether new listeners can even find us.[Ed] And here's the thing.[Ed] When someone searches Swinger Podcast,[Ed] the algorithm doesn't care how good our content is[Ed] or how long we've been around.[Ed] It only cares about ratings and reviews.[Ed] We'd appreciate it,[Ed] and your community will really appreciate it.[Unknown] Thanks for listening.[Ed] I'm not even sure why we're covering this,[Ed] but there we go.[Ed] What will God think?[Phoebe] Well, I mean, these are some of the questions[Phoebe] that you may have in your head.[Unknown] What if someone asked me this question?[Phoebe] And there's a fair share of Swingers out there[Phoebe] that are religious.[Phoebe] They still go to church.[Phoebe] And they may be conflicted with this.[Phoebe] We've heard podcasts where some of our swing or community[Phoebe] is conflicted.[Ed] Absolutely.[Ed] And this is definitely something[Ed] that you'll have to process in your own head[Ed] and deal with with your partner.[Phoebe] Or maybe you were brought up[Unknown] in a particular religious organization[Phoebe] and those set of roles and constructs[Phoebe] are resurfacing.[Phoebe] I mean, maybe you don't practice today[Phoebe] when you're starting off swinging,[Phoebe] you might be surprised that those patterns,[Phoebe] behaviors, thoughts, things of that nature[Phoebe] will creep up when you embark on this adventure.[Ed] It does happen.[Unknown] Yeah.[Ed] This is a good one.[Ed] Isn't this just a way of sugar coating cheating?[Unknown] Mm-hmm.[Ed] Well, that's where the consent comes in,[Ed] and that's where the ethical component comes in on this.[Ed] Everybody's in this and on the same page.[Ed] So typically cheating on your spouse[Ed] has to do with going behind their back[Ed] and lying to them about what's going on.[Ed] They don't know.[Ed] You're doing it in secret.[Ed] You're doing it on the side.[Unknown] And that's not consent.[Unknown] Yes.[Phoebe] And this sugar coating thing,[Phoebe] I mean, I could just hear some of my girlfriends say that[Phoebe] if I were to come out.[Phoebe] They may not believe me.[Phoebe] There are certain people that you feel safe coming out to[Phoebe] and certain people that you're like,[Phoebe] oh, hell no.[Phoebe] There's no way that would just wreck the friendship.[Phoebe] Right.[Ed] Especially those friends who are having issues[Ed] with their current partners[Ed] and going through those challenging life experiences[Ed] that we often go through in relationships.[Ed] Yeah.[Unknown] All right.[Phoebe] So four critical things needed to be successful[Phoebe] in ethical, consensual nonmanagamy.[Phoebe] You want to have your informed consent and honesty.[Phoebe] Your partner must know you're seeing other people.[Phoebe] I mean, that's the whole point.[Unknown] Right.[Phoebe] Consent.[Phoebe] Hello.[Ed] Consent to something if you don't know it's going on.[Phoebe] Right.[Phoebe] If you both aren't on the same page about it[Phoebe] and are okay with it,[Phoebe] it's not going to work out well.[Phoebe] And your boundaries and limitations must be agreed on.[Phoebe] Sometimes they can be broken in the heat of the moment.[Phoebe] But that's where number two comes in,[Phoebe] which we're going to talk about a second.[Phoebe] Do you want to elaborate on what type of scenario could occur[Phoebe] where your boundary or limitation might be broken?[Ed] Well, we had that happen pretty early on[Ed] when we got into the lifestyle where we went into the party[Ed] with a set rule where we knew exactly what was going to happen.[Ed] We had it all planned out.[Ed] Everything was going to be like this.[Ed] Ten minutes into it, we're all hot, rolling around.[Unknown] We look at each other and we're like,[Ed] you want to do something more and both of us nod vigorously[Ed] and say, yes.[Ed] Yeah.[Unknown] So it's more of boundary pushing[Ed] or you're comfortable in the moment.[Ed] And it assumed that you weren't going to be comfortable[Ed] when you went into it.[Phoebe] It's like going to the roller skating rink, you know,[Phoebe] you're terrified, you're like, all right,[Phoebe] I'm just going to step out onto the rink.[Phoebe] I'm going to take a few steps and then I'm off.[Unknown] Right.[Phoebe] And you're like, wow, that was really fun.[Phoebe] I think I'll go halfway around the circle.[Phoebe] You go halfway and you're like, oh my god,[Phoebe] this is amazing.[Phoebe] And then you decide to go around the whole circle.[Phoebe] But the whole time you're doing this with your partner[Phoebe] and you're agreeing to the next level in the moment.[Ed] Right.[Phoebe] Now, it can be beneficial.[Phoebe] It can also be detrimental because hormones are racing[Phoebe] and adrenaline, et cetera, et cetera.[Phoebe] And then you get the next day and you're like,[Ed] what did I do?[Phoebe] You know, it felt good in the moment,[Phoebe] but I'm a little not okay with that today.[Phoebe] And that's where the communication comes in,[Phoebe] which is number two,[Phoebe] regrouping if a boundary is crossed.[Phoebe] You know, it's not malicious.[Phoebe] So the next day, you have this regroup session.[Phoebe] You're like, you know, it was great last night.[Phoebe] I had such a good time,[Phoebe] but today I'm feeling a little funny about it.[Phoebe] And you may not know why.[Phoebe] You may not know how to articulate it in that moment.[Phoebe] You may need another 24 hours to kind of sit with it.[Phoebe] And then that day or the following day,[Phoebe] you might be able to articulate what it was[Phoebe] that was a little off to you.[Phoebe] Maybe you didn't get enough attention.[Phoebe] Maybe there's a little bit of envy going on.[Phoebe] And you talk that stuff through with your partner[Unknown] and then you move on.[Unknown] So you're going to be obviously,[Phoebe] hopefully confident and comfortable[Phoebe] saying what you need to say about that situation.[Phoebe] And you work towards a mutually beneficial understanding[Phoebe] that suits you both.[Phoebe] One of you may be more comfortable or confident[Phoebe] or flirty than the other,[Phoebe] but negotiating through this[Phoebe] and expressing your desires in your fears[Phoebe] and supporting with another is essential.[Ed] Absolutely.[Ed] And when we've had experiences[Ed] where we've had to process it afterwards,[Unknown] it's just listening.[Unknown] It's understanding what happened in the moment[Unknown] or a way to approach it the next time[Ed] to make your partner more comfortable.[Unknown] Awareness, this is also essential to this process.[Phoebe] It's not a journey for those[Phoebe] who are blind and unwilling to grow and change[Phoebe] and analyze their thought processes[Unknown] and their being.[Phoebe] I mean, if you're the classic,[Phoebe] would they say an old dog can't change?[Ed] Learn new tricks.[Unknown] That's it.[Phoebe] Then yeah, there's no way you could be in this.[Phoebe] I mean, I suppose there could be,[Phoebe] but it's going to be a bumpy ride.[Phoebe] Yeah.[Phoebe] It's challenging.[Phoebe] I mean, think about it.[Phoebe] You're challenging any kind of thought process[Phoebe] and structure laid out by your religious upbringing, right?[Ed] Right.[Ed] Social constructs, community rules and guidelines.[Unknown] Yes.[Unknown] Yes.[Phoebe] Even if you can't share it with anyone[Phoebe] so you have this huge secret.[Ed] Right.[Phoebe] So, I mean, not to mention family,[Phoebe] you've got to keep it from them.[Unknown] I mean, it's, you know.[Ed] Most people don't understand it.[Ed] And so trying to explain it to them[Ed] if they'll even let you explain[Unknown] and not just immediately freak out,[Ed] yeah, it's challenging.[Phoebe] It can be a lot.[Unknown] And then the last part is just letting go.[Phoebe] How we knew early on[Phoebe] that we consciously chose to be with one another every day.[Phoebe] In fact, it was in our wedding bows[Phoebe] and it keeps us on our toes all the time.[Unknown] Yeah.[Phoebe] We still date and dress up for one another.[Phoebe] Maybe not so much night now during COVID.[Phoebe] I try to get out of my robe by 10.[Unknown] Yeah.[Unknown] Oh my gosh.[Ed] Not too many pajamas for both of us.[Ed] I know.[Phoebe] I'm in my pajamas right now.[Phoebe] But, you know, it is kind of late.[Unknown] I know.[Unknown] Yeah.[Phoebe] But while we know deep down that[Phoebe] Ed and I are partners for life,[Phoebe] we also appreciate each other daily.[Phoebe] We don't control one another,[Phoebe] but we want the best for each other.[Phoebe] And this is the part of the journey that gets really interesting.[Phoebe] Seeing your partner expressing joy and pleasure[Phoebe] with another can be extremely sexy.[Phoebe] If you can get there,[Phoebe] it's very sexy.[Phoebe] I'm not saying it's easy.[Phoebe] For some people, it's like breathing air.[Phoebe] For me, it took me about six years to get there.[Phoebe] But it didn't just, you know,[Phoebe] dissuade or distract me from,[Phoebe] from the enjoyment that I was getting.[Phoebe] There was a lot of other factors that were pleasurable[Unknown] and, you know, wonderful.[Ed] Yeah, we had some…[Unknown] But I…[Ed] Really fun times.[Phoebe] I wouldn't say that was my primary mode for doing it.[Phoebe] A lot of people say,[Phoebe] oh yeah, that's like their first thing.[Phoebe] And I'm like, no, that is not my first thing.[Phoebe] But now, yeah, it's actually…[Phoebe] It's pretty damn sexy.[Phoebe] It's probably going to say,[Ed] consent is sexy.[Unknown] That is pretty hot.[Phoebe] Anything else you want to add?[Unknown] Mr. Ed Wilber?[Unknown] Wilber?[Ed] Yeah, it's been fun.[Ed] We've definitely challenged monogamy[Ed] for the last six years.[Ed] And we've seen a lot of people struggle with it.[Unknown] So it's a growth opportunity.[Ed] It's an experience.[Ed] It's an adventure.[Ed] But you've got to go into it together.[Ed] And like we said,[Ed] those four guidelines are really key[Ed] to making it through this.[Ed] So if you're interested in trying this adventure…[Phoebe] I'm sure you're just going to solicit our listeners.[Phoebe] You're interested in this.[Phoebe] Just drop us a line.[Unknown] That too.[Ed] Feel free to contact us through SwingerUniversity.com.[Phoebe] Yes.[Phoebe] Leave us some feedback.[Ed] Messages.[Ed] Yes.[Ed] We'd love to hear some stories.[Ed] We've actually heard some great stories[Ed] from some of our listeners.[Phoebe] Oh, yeah.[Phoebe] Check out our webpage.[Phoebe] We posted a bunch of listener email.[Phoebe] Of course, we keep everything.[Phoebe] One hundred people.[Ed] Cooper anonymous.[Phoebe] Yes.[Phoebe] Confidential.[Phoebe] And we've got a lot of great feedback too[Phoebe] that we posted up there.[Phoebe] So, yeah.[Phoebe] Feel free to peruse.[Phoebe] Drop us a line.[Phoebe] Rate us on iTunes.[Phoebe] All that good stuff.[Ed] Yeah.[Unknown] All right.[Phoebe] Well, everyone.[Phoebe] Have a safe and healthy.[Phoebe] I don't know.[Unknown] 2020, if you ever get back out of your house.[Phoebe] That's right.[Ed] And one day we'll all be able to practice.[Ed] Consensual non-monogamy.[Ed] That's not virtual.[Unknown] That's not virtual.[Unknown] But in the meantime, you can catch up on all of the[Ed] Swinger University podcasts and learn some new tricks[Ed] in the comfort of your own home.[Ed] Absolutely.[Ed] So enjoy and stay safe.[Unknown] Good night.[Phoebe] Before you turn off our podcast to take care of all the vanilla things[Phoebe] pulling you away, please reach out and give us a review.[Phoebe] I am the first to admit that it's much easier to give a five-star rating,[Phoebe] which we appreciate.[Phoebe] But if you could take 43 seconds to type a review, we would love it.[Phoebe] If you want to share a personal story, ask us questions or share your comments.[Phoebe] You can contact us at Swinger University at gmail.com.[Phoebe] Check us out at SwingerUniversity.com where you can find links to our Twitter[Phoebe] and Instagram feeds.[Phoebe] Thank you so much for listening to Swinger University, your horizontal enrichment podcast.[Unknown] Oh, one last thing before you go.[Ed] If this episode helped you in any way, the single best thing you can do to support the show[Ed] is leaving a rating and review.[Ed] It takes 60 seconds and helps new people find us when they're searching for[Ed] relationship education.[Ed] And we've made it easy.[Ed] Visit SwingerUniversity.com forward slash review.[Ed] All the instructions are there.[Ed] Thank you for being part of this community.[Ed] We'll see you again soon.