Erectile Dysfunction, Performance Anxiety and Swinging – The Secrets No One Talks About

[00:00] [Unknown] Welcome to Swinger University. I’m Ed. And I’m Phoebe. Today we are speaking with Brett Chamberlain,

[00:06] [Ed] the Executive Director at Open, an organization for polyamory and ethical non-monogamy.
There are non-profit advocacy organizations working to advance legal rights and cultural

[00:19] [Unknown] acceptance for non-monogamous families and individuals. Since 2022 they have been featured in seven

[00:28] [Guest] national media stories such as the New York Times, NPR, and CBC. Past two municipal
non-discrimination ordinances in Berkeley and Oakland, California partnered without
and equal the leading global LGBTQ plus workplace advocacy organization partnered also with six
Fortune 500 companies using their resources to advance inclusive workspace policies.
Collected 7,500 responses from the community on their surveys, support and serve people with
peer support sessions twice monthly and collaborate with over 60 community groups and creators.

[01:19] [Ed] Welcome Brett, we’re excited to have you on our show. Hi Ed and Phoebe, thank you so much for

[01:25] [Guest] having me. Yeah, glad you could make it. Very excited to get this interview with you and really
showcase or bring to light the open the organization and just all the great work and

[01:42] [Unknown] programs that you have available. So once again, excited you’re here. Thank you.
So let’s start with this one. Here’s a slow pitch. How did you get involved with Open?

[01:57] [Phoebe] So I’ve been doing advocacy and activism for really my whole life. I started out doing anti-war
and anti-recruitment work in my home state of New Hampshire as a high school student kind of coming
of political consciousness during the early Bush years in the war on terrorism to date myself
just a little bit. It was at the front lines of Occupy Wall Street as a college student and after
graduating from college founded my first non-profit in environmental advocacy organization working

[02:24] [Unknown] on waste on college campuses. And it was for a job in the environmental non-profit sector that
brought me out to the Bay Area in 2016. And quite quickly I found myself becoming really immersed

[02:35] [Phoebe] in the Bay Area sex positive and polyamorous communities. And I found it really impactful,
very personally transformative. It gave me access to these really wonderful supportive, vulnerable,
liberated communities, gave me access to new school skills and tools and vocabularies to pursue

[02:53] [Unknown] the relationships that were fulfilling for me. But in immersing in these spaces I learned a

[02:58] [Phoebe] couple things that really surprised me. And the first was just how widespread non-monogamy actually
was. One in five American adults will be in a non-monogamous relationship at some point in their
life and about one in 20 describe their current relationship as non-monogamous. And this of course
includes the whole range of non-monogamous identities and experiences from polyamory to relationship
andarchy to the Swinger lifestyle and many many many many more terms and labels that people use
beyond those. The next thing I learned that was really surprising to me was just how marginalized
of an identity this really was. That even in quite progressive places like the Bay Area my friends
and my peers were afraid of being open about their identity or their relationships with their
family in the workplace because of the stigma and the pushback that that can lead to.
And so it seemed that there was an opportunity for more advocacy in this space to push not only
for acceptance to end this stigma and the marginalization but critically to push for greater rights
to dismantle the systemic barriers that marginalized non-monogamous families and relationships
and to ensure that people had access to the full rights and privileges and protections that we

[04:14] [Unknown] grant to various other identities and family structures. So I decided to take it up. I quit my job

[04:22] [Phoebe] and started putting the pieces together for open in the beginning of 2022. We publicly launched the
organization that spring. So we are approaching in just about six weeks our three-year anniversary and

[04:32] [Unknown] it’s been a really exciting ride since then. This is a really rapidly growing space movement space

[04:40] [Phoebe] that I think has reached this critical mass and it’s really wonderful to see folks stepping into
their political power and really claiming our seat of the table and our voice in the conversation.

[04:50] [Ed] Very nice. Very nice. And do you feel comfortable sharing your relationship preference?

[04:58] [Phoebe] Yeah you know I’ve started identifying just as non-monogamous generically. As I mentioned there
kind of came out of the some of more polyamory-oriented Bay Area scene and at previous times had
identified as polyamorous. I was describing my relationship structure and at the time I had
one partner and we would sometimes play with other folks at parties and whatnot and they sent to me
you know that kind of sounds like lifestyle. And I think there is an interesting point there that
these labels are all kind of squishy and bleed into one another. So yeah I think that labels are
important for helping us understand ourselves and our experiences but ultimately I think that
non-monogamy as the umbrella term is the most expansive it’s the most flexible and I’ll let you
on a little secret as an organizer in this space it’s also very politically prudent for me to not

[05:51] [Ed] pick a side as it were. Right yeah that’s a really good point and we’ve struggled a lot with labels
in terms of depending on who you’re talking to or where they are in their journey how progressive
they are in terms of there was a term floated around when we first got started which was progressive
swinging which was sort of poly but sort of swinging and it’s one of those things where it’s like
people are kind of creating their own terminology just to be able to describe their one particular
unique slice of this spectrum you know there’s so many different ways that people are

[06:31] [Unknown] ethically non-monogamous and you can’t really put a single label on some of the things that people do

[06:39] [Ed] because it depends on the weekend right they could change from here to there so which label do

[06:45] [Guest] you stick with so yeah it’s it’s good I even find it interesting that we we we feel the need to put
the word ethical in front of it because there’s already a judgment a stigma on

[07:02] [Unknown] non-monogamy why can’t non-monogamy just be fine like why why does it have to be labeled with

[07:12] [Guest] something why does it have to have another descriptor to go oh well it’s we’re being ethical about

[07:18] [Ed] it we’re not cheating right and I get it but at the same time it’s kind of like using the negative
to have to define what we’re doing which we tend to think of this very positive but yeah right

[07:30] [Phoebe] if I was to name the organization again tomorrow I think we would go with a different name of course
it’s a very punchy little acronym but increasingly we’re just using open in part because the full
name of the organization is it’s a mouthful but also because of some reasonable concerns around
the the ethical label that you just raised you know there are already multiple words for non-concentral
non-monogamy we call it cheating we call it infidelity and so increasingly we’re just using the
label non-monogamy which really captures the whole range of practices within it yeah yeah that’s

[08:04] [Ed] great what are some of the programs and services that you offer for people who are listening

[08:11] [Phoebe] so let me start with our theory of change which is really just activist speech for how we’re
actually going to go about doing what it is that we say we’re going to do right so our mission is
to advance rights and acceptance for non-monogamous people how do we do that so it’s a threefold approach
and I’m starting with this because our programs then kind of fall into these buckets yeah it makes
so the first is supporting non-monogamous communities and relationships right the idea is that if
people aren’t experiencing positive outcomes in their own lives in their own experience of
it’s really hard for them to then show up for the broader advocacy activities that we want to
invite people in towards so some of our programs in this area include things like our free
twice monthly peer support sessions that provide a safe and inclusive space for people to come
together connect with other non-monogamous folks share what’s going on in their life get at
vice and so on we’ve also published a range of resources that aim to help people navigate
various systemic barriers or important life events processes and moments in our lives that
aren’t typically designed with our types of families and relationships in mind so this include
things like our end of life planning and death care guide right this is like a really important
and very difficult conversation like everybody a family and partnership needs to have at some point
but again these industries are designed with with normative family models in mind so we’ve created
a resource to help people navigate that that’s that’s just one example we’ve got a few others
that folks can find on our website open-love.org slash resources actually that’s supporting the
nominatus community the next area of our work is invisibility right the ideas of people are
experiencing positive outcomes then they feel more proud more ready to be visible about their
identity some of the programs in this area include the annual week of visibility for non-monogamy
that’ll be in July of this year we’ll be sending out a save the date soon and that’s a annual
global celebration where we encourage people just to show up and come together in community connect
with other nominatus people where they live but also have conversations with their neighbors that
may not be as familiar with the identities and values of the nominatus communities that are
interwoven with with ors every other community we’ve also done our annual community survey we’ve
run this for three years in 2024 we collected 4500 responses from 70 countries make them
the largest survey of nominatus people I’m published to date and this really helps us get a grasp
on the identities and the experiences of the communities we serve really across the world
and critically this data mentally helps steer our work but it also helps to substantiate some
of our advocacy work and finally shape the conversation around nominatus that data seconds used
by academic researchers by presenters at conferences by journalists in a coverage of non-monogamy
and so on so in the final piece of our work is the advocacy work right and this is kind of where
the rubber meets the road this is really actually passing laws changing systems our two major program

[11:13] [Unknown] areas in in the advocacy sphere are our open workplaces initiative this is a workplace advocacy

[11:21] [Phoebe] program that helps nominatus professionals safely open up about their identity at work but also

[11:26] [Unknown] push for more inclusive policies in the workplace so anti-discrimination and anti-harassment language

[11:32] [Phoebe] in your hiring guidelines and your employee handbook and so on the other side of our advocacy
work is the legislative advocacy and this is focused on passing municipal level non-discrimination
productions so there’s bar discrimination on the basis of family or relationship structure as you
mentioned in the intro we help get those passed in Berkeley and Oakland in California last year
and that follows the lead set by Cambridge and Somerville Massachusetts in 2023 and we’re really

[12:01] [Unknown] thrilled to be scaling up that effort in 2025 we’re working with grassroots leaders in Seattle

[12:07] [Phoebe] in San Francisco in Portland in San Jose and rangemore cities we’ve just published a comprehensive
legislative advocacy toolkit collaboratively with a number of other organizations that really
walked people through that entire process top to bottom everything you need to know to pass
local productions where you live so we’re really hoping that that resource can help people bring
this effort to home to their community and we can expand the coverage of these productions
from two cities in 2023 reaching four cities in 2024 to hopefully far more cities this year

[12:39] [Unknown] and in the years to come excellent oh I was thinking of Colorado Colorado might be good too

[12:47] [Guest] boulders on our list yeah boulder I think nice nice would be a good place to start yeah there’s

[12:53] [Ed] a pretty large swing community there so yeah yeah boulders very progressive and college town

[13:00] [Guest] and that would be fun oh I’m very excited I’m very very excited for a direction of your
company’s going and organization is going and we have more questions let’s see how how has
opened changing the public perception in regard to ad campaigns and media and how can people help

[13:26] [Phoebe] yeah you know visibility and acceptance is really essential when it comes to or I should say
visibility is essential when it comes to promoting acceptance people are far more likely to accept
somebody with an out group identity such as participation in non monogamy if they actually
directly know somebody who’s non monogamous right so if you’re co-worker or your friend or family
member or a member of your church congregation is non monogamous it really helps you humanize
that practice and realize that they’re not out to steal your spouse so we really do encourage
people to be open about their identity if it’s safe for them to do so now it’s really important
to put a caveat here that not everyone can be open about their identity particularly if you hold
other marginalized identities discrimination and marginalization can compound as you have more
and more identities so for folks for whom it is safe to do so we do really encourage you to think
about having that conversation with your friend with your co-worker with your siblings your family
members because every person that is open about their identity that helps chip away at that stigma
and the misconceptions makes it safer for other people to be open about their identity so to help
people do this we’ve you know this really cuts across a lot of our work right so as I mentioned in
our open workplaces toolkit provide tips for how to open up safely in the workplace we do social media
education where we tackle myths about non monogamy some of their really persistent and frustrating myths
just keep seeming to come up we put out research like our community survey we organize the global
week of visibility for non monogamy that had participants in I think five countries this past
year with dozens and dozens of in-person virtual events and finally we work to get our story out
into the media it’s really important that we be reaching not just other nominogamous people
but the general public in order to really actively push back against some of those
missing misconceptions and portray present a more authentic portrayal of non monogamy

[15:31] [Ed] yeah it’s great you you make a really good point it’s one thing to see a tick-tock post or something
from an influencer if you will and something completely different when you hear a personal story
and you know that person I can think of examples of a lot of people in the LGBTQ community who have
friends and family who support that community and become advocates for that community because
it’s like their brother or their sister or their their child but anybody who doesn’t have a close
personal relationship with that they don’t have that understanding they don’t have that
recognition that are all people like we all deserve our own set of rights that every other person
is entitled to so you know discrimination in any factors not a good thing i’d never really

[16:23] [Guest] thought about identities being compounded and when you were saying that is that where
maybe you’re you’re you’re open about being lesbian or gay and and oh by the way i’m also
nominogamous so is that where you’re saying where those identities start to compound and then
that can have some some challenges for for individuals in their community or with their like
family circle is that what we were saying with that statement yeah particularly folks that have

[16:59] [Phoebe] other marginalized identities are less likely to have say the types of class privilege that might
insulate them from the implications of being fired from their job there might be existing biases
that can intersect with this sense of with the biases around nominogamy so some you know ethnic
identities or queer identities tend to be more sexualized and that can reinforce perceptions
of nominogamy that that it’s just about sex or that these people you know are out to steal your
partner so those are just examples of these ways that these different intersecting identities or
marginalized identities can kind of come into conversation with one another or amplify one another
by reinforcing existing stereotypes about those different identities.

[17:43] [Guest] Oh, interesting. I never find.

[17:52] [Ed] Alright, we need your help so that your community the very one you love and have so much fun with
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[18:13] [Unknown] subscribe and turn on notifications. We can’t emphasize enough how much this helps the

[18:19] [Ed] Swinger community and it truly is up to you to make that happen. It makes a massive difference

[18:25] [Unknown] and whether new listeners can even find us and here’s the thing when someone searches

[18:31] [Ed] Swinger podcast the algorithm doesn’t care how good our content is or how long we’ve been around.

[18:38] [Unknown] It only cares about ratings and reviews. We’d appreciate it and your community will really
appreciate it. Thanks for listening. I never knew that. We’re thought about that.

[18:56] [Ed] We’re at a disadvantage for thinking about other people’s shoes because we we live in our own
shoes right and we are Caucasian and middle class and a lot of other things that kind of give us
certain privileges that we don’t realize on a daily basis until you start talking about people
talking to people who do not have those privileges and yeah I think it’s great that
de-stigmifying any of these things helps to kind of reduce that compound issue and so all of us
kind of working together to to to help take that noise down I think will be really good for

[19:42] [Phoebe] the community in general. Yeah let me add two more pieces on this just and sorry do you want to
go ahead? Yeah it’s because I think this is a really important topic. First of all this points
to the importance of that story telling of that visibility right like I know that I’ve learned a
lot because it has a described earlier like I had my own experience with nonmenogamy but it’s
in a pretty progressive area I’m also a cisgendered white man who has enjoyed you know a
considerable degree of privilege on as a result of those those privileged identities and it’s
really important for me to be in conversation and for all of us to be in conversation with folks

[20:17] [Unknown] who have had different experiences because you know for example if not for having had those

[20:23] [Phoebe] conversations I might be saying everybody needs to be open about their nonmenogamy’s identity
and that can actually be harmful it can put people at risk if we don’t really acknowledge
another saying that different people have different ways of showing up. The other really important
point to all this is that this work has to go both ways by which I mean not only do we as nonmenogamous
people have to be showing up in a way that acknowledges different identities intersections with
nonmenogamy we also as a movement have to show up in ways that work to address the marginalization
that other people experience on the basis of those identities so I can illustrate this I think a

[21:00] [Unknown] little bit better with the point we did a panel discussion on identity and inclusion in the

[21:06] [Phoebe] nonmenogamous and nonmenogamous communities and one of the speakers who’s the president of
opens board William Winters leads a Bay Area sex positive and polyamorous community called
bonobos and William has a background himself in social justice and racial justice organizing
and he was discussing how to make your nonmenogamous community or your events your sex positive
events more inclusive on the basis of race and he certainly provided some suggestions that you can
take into consideration to do that but he also made the point that you’re not going to solve racism
in your nonmenogamous community as racism exists out there everywhere right he’s living in society
with you know generational systemic inequalities and systemic racism and so if we want to have safe
and inclusive nonmenogamous communities and sex positive events on the basis of race we can’t
just fix it ourselves here we have to go out there so this is why I think it’s really important
that as nonmenogamous people and as a nonmenogamous movement we also show up for intersecting and
overlapping movements for social justice for racial justice for economic justice and environmental

[22:13] [Ed] justice and so on yeah I mean the easiest way for me to think about that is all the underdogs need
to stick together yeah we’re all we’re all fighting similar problems we’re all fighting for in a
sense our seat in society and and to be normalized so it makes sense it’s interesting that
that we’re talking about this we just did an interview recently with Alex Liu for a documentary

[22:43] [Unknown] that he had produced called a sex planation and largely the the documentary was about sex education
in the United States and what the lack of the utter just disparity that we have of educating people

[22:57] [Ed] in terms of just basic procreative recreational sex like sex has a whole bunch of different uses
in in the world and it was interesting because we also touched on the LGBTQ community because he
happens to be gay and so we talked about coming out and being open and all of those things that he

[23:20] [Unknown] had to struggle with in that particular facet of his life and we’d gotten some comments about

[23:27] [Guest] like why are you bringing the gay thing in oh yeah on on the video and we were like well

[23:34] [Ed] because hey there are bisexual people who are swingers there are lesbian and gay men who are in
the lifestyle and I’m sure that that happens in polyamory as well although we we don’t know
any personally but I can’t imagine that there is not some then diagram where all of those things

[23:54] [Unknown] intersect at some level so 100% agree we’ve all got to talk about this we’re all in this together

[24:02] [Ed] and there is a ton of overlap between all of these different communities if nothing more than
just being marginalized and being pushed out by the quote normal people right yeah I it’s all about

[24:17] [Unknown] confronting normative models and the hierarchies that uphold those normative models and whether

[24:25] [Phoebe] that normative model that you’re addressing is whiteness or heteronormativity or mono normativity
we are confronting the same if not the same systems or structures directly then certainly the same

[24:39] [Ed] meta structures of inequality and marginalization yeah yeah for sure now I know you talked about

[24:47] [Guest] the peer support group that occurs twice weekly is that correct twice monthly it’s on the second
third Tuesday of each month is that that’s on your website and is it free for people or is there

[24:58] [Phoebe] a small fee how does that work totally free to attend we do gratefully accept folks contributions
of course these programs I’ll take money to run and open being a nonprofit we’re not getting like
major philanthropic funding we’re not going to any philanthropic or any significant philanthropic
funding because that sort of legacy foundations are certainly not really paying attention to this
issues we’re not getting corporate sponsorship should we totally depend on our community to support
our work so folks can register for the peer support sessions at open-love.org slash peer-support
and we’re really proud to be offered though to be able to offer those for free you know conventional
kind of talk therapy is prohibitively expensive for most people health insurance if you’re lucky enough

[25:41] [Unknown] to be able to afford that typically to cover it and there are many fantastic nomenogamous

[25:48] [Phoebe] facilitators who do offer excellent peer support or partner support coaching often though those
do come at a cost as well so we’re really thrilled to be able to offer this program free and accessible

[26:00] [Guest] that’s that’s fantastic I love that I’ve I’ve found a lot of value in these virtual any virtual
event that brings together the community that we’re in the nomenogamy community it’s it’s so

[26:17] [Unknown] nice to just feel like you’re not alone and a lot of times people they’re they don’t have

[26:27] [Guest] anybody to talk to there’s no one in their family unit or friends that they know of
that they can talk to and so it can be very isolating there’s also a discord channel that you

[26:38] [Phoebe] have is that still going absolutely I think we had about 700 coming out of 800 members in our
community discord folks can find the link to our discord and to all of our social media pages

[26:49] [Unknown] at open-love.org slash hello open-love.org slash hello in a discord we’ve got folks from all

[26:56] [Phoebe] around the world having great conversations offering advice talking about great nomenogamous
books but we also have organizing channels we’re really hoping to grow a little bit more this year
to provide a space for folks to collaborate around their work as community leaders or event organizers
or advocates for some of the interventions we’ve been talking about today so we’d love to welcome
folks into our discord we’ve got folks from as I say all around the world and the whole range of
nomenogamous practices polyamory the lifestyle relationship anarchy and many more that’s great what

[27:30] [Unknown] go ahead no wait what is relationship anarchy so there are many folks that can give a better definition

[27:39] [Phoebe] than than I can relationship anarchy is the idea that people should have the freedom to
construct every one of their relationships according to the needs and desires and capacities
of the people in that relationship without regard for prescribed forms or models of what a
relationship is or should look like in any of the domains so folks often refer to this this tool
that’s actually a great tool for folks in any relationship structure called the relationship
schmorgasbord which lays out various different dimensions of relationship from emotional support
to co-parenting to financial entanglement to emotional intimacy physical intimacy kink so on and so
forth and through this tool the schmorgasbord people can go through collaboratively with a partner
or a partners and talk about how they’d like to show up or what they’re not available for in each
domain of that relationship and one of the things that I think is a really great takeaway from
relationship anarchy that again I think is applicable for everyone is that you know every relationship
we are in in our lives is a relationship right like relationships kind of two words at once we use
it to mean romantic relationship but like I’m in a relationship with my friends with my roommates
with my siblings just different types of relationships but all of them can still involve a design
for like what what types of support do we want to provide so I can have a conversation with with
my roommates about hey to what extent are you available for emotional support for example or even
you know non-sexual physical intimacy do we feel comfortable cuddling while we watch a movie
even if you know again we’re roommates so I think there’s a lot of really great learnings and
wisdoms that come from the relationship of anarchy kind of theory yeah and and I like the idea of

[29:30] [Ed] in a sense anarchy just being the non-conformist nature of build your own relationship
you know you constructed however you want and don’t feel compelled to have to fit the once again

[29:41] [Unknown] that cookie cutter definition of what that means I can imagine it requires a little bit more creative

[29:48] [Ed] conversation and that it sounds like that tool would be really good to be able to describe what
that relationship is and a lot of times we’ll give it advice to other swingers when they go well
we’ve got this kind of interesting relationship does this ever happen and it’s like well
sure you want to do it that way so it does exist you just need to have a conversation with your
potential partners to see if hey are you on board for this one of the relationships was
the woman is interested in full swap but the man is only interested in oral and it’s like great
try and put that into a cookie cutter definition it’s it’s a little you know it’s an odd looking
cookie we’ll just call it that it doesn’t look like a traditional cookie that everybody else can
point to and go that but that’s perfectly valid for that couple and that’s what they like to do so

[30:39] [Unknown] they just need to present that and say hey this is what we want but sometimes it’s hard to have the

[30:44] [Guest] or challenging because you those are those instances where you want to look for a label to just go
I’m blocked right and not have five sentences about it in a social setting where it’s loud
and no one can understand you so they were like looking for a definition and I’m like oh I don’t
think I don’t think there is one yeah and I’m like it’s that elevator pitch right like it’s hard

[31:07] [Ed] to come up with an elevator pitch something that you can say in like one or two sentences that
that just describes what you want but you know that something to work on the other the other

[31:16] [Unknown] couple that reached the quad that reached out to us is they they started they opened up their

[31:23] [Guest] relationship they immediately fell in love with another couple and they’ve just been a quad ever
since and but now the opposite partners are wanting to to go out and experience other partners not
not not bring them back as a quad but more on a swinging type of of relationship and so now there’s
this consensus between all four and how they feel about it and so they reached out and said is
this normal over like normal for you that’s what you want to do and that’s how you you know you
that’s what interests you then it sounds like you you guys already have the that great communication
I I said you you’ve been doing this for years you clearly have your communication down it’s
what what’s working is is great you know just continue with that and have fun and report back
nope yeah but you know those are the things where people are like they know they’re doing it
differently but they don’t really they’re not finding other people to relate to to go how do we

[32:29] [Unknown] navigate this how do we do this new thing here’s why we sail on virgin it’s adults only no kids

[32:44] [Guest] screaming at breakfast no family buffet lines just champagne at noon late night pool parties

[32:52] [Unknown] and people who actually want to be there the vibe think boutique hotel that happens to float

[33:00] [Guest] tattoo parlors drag brunch restaurants you’d actually pay for on land plus when you’re looking
to connect with other couples who know how to have fun let’s just say virgin attracts a very
specific type of adventurous no wonder bread cruisers here just your people yeah I mean I

[33:24] [Phoebe] mean I think that the key takeaway point here is that you know we’ve been told for the longest time
that there is one right way to do relationships right it’s the monogamous relationship and what
we’re advocating for is that there are there are more right ways or acceptable ways to do relationships
but let’s say that you know we say okay monogamy is is a right way and also the lifestyle is a right
way well now you’ve given people twice as many options but they are still constrained right if
lifestyle only means one thing if it only looks like one thing well people still don’t really have
the freedom to pursue the relationships that are right for them that may fall outside of those
boxes and again I think that’s a great takeaway from relationship andarchy but I think an essential
kind of theoretical underpinning for this advocacy work as a whole is that it’s not just about
elevating non-monogamous relationships to stand alongside monogamous romantic relationships
at the top of the relationships are at the stack right as the ultimate most desirable most
important form of relationships but rather it’s about saying all relationships are fundamental
to the human experience and are worthy of respect and are worthy of you know care and compassion
and effort and intention among the people that are part of them and also respect among the people
that are around them right and at the same time though as you do correctly observed earlier and
like labels are helpful having a pity elevator pitch is helpful so yeah yeah yeah acknowledge that

[34:50] [Ed] it goes both ways yeah it’s always it’s always fun it’s a it’s a good challenge though because I
think yeah trying to come up with the elevator pitch or or the way to describe your relationship
communicates that you have you’re taking the effort to try and describe your relationships
other people and I think that that’s great and I think if you have to have a conversation about it

[35:12] [Unknown] there are worse things to have conversations about you know it’s it’s great like talk about it

[35:19] [Ed] exactly how is open supporting people impacted by legal issues so getting past kind of the the
social you know normalization of of all of these various combinations of human beings there’s
there’s some stuff going on in terms of legal implications I mean even leases I’ve
and health insurance with different standards for domestic partnerships versus married partnerships
right like there’s all kinds of slippery stuff going on how is open helping with all that

[36:02] [Phoebe] you know not as much as I wish we were able to um there are a range of issues that play there
that you just touched on everything from health insurance to child custody which commune
incredibly intense and high stakes and very you know heightened um legal area um what more what’s
more we of course have a federal system where there are 50 different legal frameworks in
different states a lot of this is regulated or governed at the state level so it can vary quite a
bit how folks need to address these challenges at the state level um we’re still I would say in
quite the early stages of our efforts to provide people with more direct support in this area much
of what we’re doing at this stage is just their education so I spoke earlier of our educational
resources an example of a resource that we are currently developing is around housings that’s
includes things like co buying a house as a multi-partner arrangement um moving in if you’re let’s say
that a third member of a triad or perhaps two couples decide to move in together and now you’re in
a situation where two of them are technically the owners of the landlords and the other two are
technically their tenants but also their partners are their you know right swing swing partners um so
you know those are examples of the types of educational resources that we’re hoping to put out

[37:19] [Unknown] looking ahead into the longer run for minority identities like like this typically there’s a dual

[37:27] [Phoebe] approach uh we’re actually really a trifecta approach you get the cultural approach then you’ve
got the legislative approach and then you finally have a judicial approach right like that is what
we saw with gay marriage to choose in like obviously relevant example where you had in some states
it was being legalized through through judiciary or you had a legal case and the judge was saying

[37:46] [Unknown] you know indeed this is discriminatory and overturning a law restricting marriage to

[37:53] [Phoebe] partners of an opposite gender right whereas in other cases you had it going through the legislature
the state legislature passing a bill um but those judicial cases those all depend on having
lawyers right like lawyers are offensive um and you also want to ensure that you’re doing it in a
coordinated fashion because what you don’t want to do is move forward with the case and have the
judge say yeah actually this discriminatory law is totally fine and then you’ve established
even more precedent reinforcing a law makes it harder to overturn down the line so you know in
the future I do think that the nominogue community will have access to greater legal support and
legal resources such that we as a movement um I use the royal weave air um although I do hope
that open will continue to have a role to play in that are able to deliver legal services
direct legal services and legal support to people that are going through these issues um and
they were also able to provide greater legal education right so lawyers uh through their professional
accreditation or their law school should be aware of nominogue community they should be aware of
the issues impacting such that a lawyer is dealing with a custody dispute wherein somebody’s
participation in the lifestyle for example is a factor that’s being erased in order to deny them
custody of their child that lawyer is not being caught totally off guard and can no how to respond
to that um we’ll take this six time this takes money um this takes no how uh but I think that we
will we will get there in the meantime oh let me I do want to highlight a couple organizations that
are doing great work in the space um one is chosen family law center they practice in New York
and New Jersey and the other is chosen family law Texas uh I should note there that both are
organizations that we collaborate with um Stacy McClar to you the attorney from chosen family law
Texas sits on the opens board and of course lawyers are typically barred to practice in a particular
state so I know that only covers New York New Jersey and Texas um there are many other lawyers out
there and certainly open or um those providers can’t help refer folks to other um uh inclusive
and accepting lawyers uh another resource that can support with that is the kink and poly aware
professional directory maintained by the national coalition for sexual freedom and this includes
lawyers and therapists and so on that self-identify is being kink uh and poly and and lifestyle aware uh
and ready to have hate for clients that hold those identities or practices very good yeah I

[40:20] [Ed] I could see the legal complexity with all of this the law works very well to sit to find
something that is legal versus illegal and because it’s it’s very clear cut if you do this this happens
but we just talked about this massive slippery slope of definitions of things
so I can imagine trying to codify that into a law book with with very clear boundaries
gets tricky and maybe it’s a matter of just having better definitions of what these things are
or grouping things together and just say humans can do things and maybe we should stop being so
particular about which humans can do what things but yeah I could see that and I’ll throw
this out any of our listeners or people who are watching this who are lawyers who are interested in

[41:14] [Unknown] contributing to opens cause and the the cause of helping this whole thing uh get resolved legally

[41:25] [Ed] please reach out we we’d love to put you in touch or you can contact them directly um we definitely
know there’s lots of nurses and doctors and law enforcement who are in the lifestyle we run
across them all the time um but I’m I’m sure because we’re a cross section of society in general that
there are lawyers out there who might want to help so yeah I’d love to hear from folks and I do

[41:49] [Phoebe] I’m sorry I keep stepping on you there yeah I just I’ve got I love talking about this stuff but
I do want to double click on one point you made it ahead and that is that you know in in
some regard the law is black and white right like it’s it’s written in this very elaborate very
concrete language and yet that still leaves a lot of room for ambiguity yeah so for example in
custody cases the standard at play is what’s called the best interest of the child and that’s up
to the judge to determine that and so if the judge has negative preconceptions about folks in the
lifestyle and thinks that it’s going to be dangerous for the kid to be around and there’s always
going to be people coming over then they can deny custody of a child somebody um who
persuades the lifestyle uh another example are anti adultery laws so there are 16 states in the
US that still have anti adultery laws on the books it’s a felony in three of them so if you’re
illegally married and participating in the lifestyle you are violating the law now those laws persist
even though there was a US Supreme Court case called Lawrence v Texas that very long story short

[42:44] [Unknown] said the government can’t legislate what you do in your bedroom um and so these laws are you know

[42:50] [Phoebe] on their face unconstitutional but just like remain on the books is kind of zombie laws yes and
particularly in this political era like who knows how safe Lawrence v Texas is like anything
seems like it could be overturned and all of a sudden these laws become relevant again so yes in
in some regard the law is black and white to the extent that like it is written in quite specific
words and yet there is a lot of room for interpretation and ambiguity and gray areas within that

[43:15] [Ed] yes yeah and i think it’s in particular especially with laws it’s it’s in how it is written
that that ambiguity um kind of favors flexibility in certain areas um totally unrelated case for
example in California it is it is not illegal to split lanes or to share lanes or if you ride a
motorcycle you can ride between lanes and that’s just because the law doesn’t say it is illegal to
do that so there’s there’s a hole basically so we just need to create the right holes in the law

[43:51] [Unknown] so that we can all live together in harmony hey there podcast listeners you’ve been tuning into

[44:05] [Ed] our episodes but if you ever wondered about the steamy details of our adventures or maybe hungry

[44:11] [Guest] for some sultry erotic stories well guess what we’ve got something special just for you our
exclusive patreon page it’s like a VIP pass to the saucy or side of our world so if you’re

[44:25] [Ed] ready for an exclusive behind the mic experience head over to our patreon page now trust us this

[44:33] [Unknown] is where the magic happens see you there patrons i want to talk about the survey that you put out

[44:45] [Guest] every year and how people can be part of that um to to provide data uh when when does the new survey
come out and then i also wanted to talk about any surprising statistics that you found with your

[45:04] [Unknown] last survey results yeah our community survey it we’ve typically run in the spring this year we’re

[45:11] [Phoebe] going to be pushing it back to the end of year so that it conflicts a little bit less with our
organizing around the week of his ability um and also so that we can kind of hook it on to the
like end of year you know Spotify wrapped news cycle and hopefully get a little bit more or a
media coverage over it um so folks are eager to to take the survey we’d really welcome their
participation um the best way to make sure that you get it is by following us on social media or
joining our email list you can do that again via open-love.org slash hello um we do quite a
bit of outreach to folks across the nominee space to ask them to to signal boost it so um you’ll
be hearing from us in a couple of months there i’d be able to share it then as well um a couple
things that that stand out what first i want to note to i would love to get more responses from
folks in the lifestyle um our 2024 survey had 6.1 percent of people who identified as um lifestyle
or swinger um about half of respondent identified as polyamorous so it does skew a little bit more

[46:12] [Unknown] polyamorous and love to give our lifestyle representation there um a couple of things that surprised me

[46:17] [Phoebe] first of all most people are not fully open about their identity in most areas of their life um so
with the exception of with close friends um people are not typically open at work or with their
extended friends or in their online or social media identity i know that that may be
more relevant for folks that hold like polyamorous identities that in the lifestyle i think very
understandably for folks in the lifestyle um because it’s not necessarily sort of an ongoing
partnership or relationship in the way that it might be for a polyamorous person um there’s
less of a desire or or need to you know be able to explain that you’re spending you know the weekend

[46:57] [Guest] with your other boyfriend and his family right even so though i think that people don’t want to be

[47:02] [Phoebe] afraid of being you know having it found out that they went to um you know on a swinger cruise
or a lifestyle cruise and you know worry about losing their jobs so there is still opportunity and
it really a need for us to accept and so create a little bit more space for people to be open
because even if you don’t want to practically share you also shouldn’t need to worry about being

[47:23] [Guest] outed so those are kind of corollaries yeah i can see how being polyamorous would be more
easily socially acceptable because you are in a relationship with additional people there’s
love there there’s um shared responsibilities um and i i can see
the general population going oh okay well you just love more than one person that’s that’s fine
but then when you think about swingers the first thing that comes to everyone’s mind is oh you just
want to have sex with everything that walks by and like no no no that’s not it but so you you
it’s that educating and reframing of people’s minds and and trying to
define it but yet in that definition even the swinger community as we talked about earlier is
is very diverse um it is still its own umbrella but it is very diverse in what people want some
people only want um you know kind of a one night stand if you will that’s no different than if
you’re in the dating world there i need go to a bar um some people really want that friendship
that close connection a relationship with people they want to travel with them they want
they don’t want to be polyamorous but they want they want good solid heartfelt friendships um so
it’s it’s it’s interesting and and different i can see how it’s more challenging for us
winger to just come out and say yeah i went to you know a swing or cruise or swing or resort or

[49:16] [Unknown] swing or party yeah and i get the the kind of the relationship and in a poly relationship is

[49:25] [Ed] very apparent to people because like you have this intersected family right this extended this
this non kind of uh nuclear family that that’s created and it’s harder to hide that
much like being gay right like you have a same sex partner it’s obvious that you’re holding
hands with this person it’s you can’t hide it um you you’ve got three people who are living at

[49:52] [Unknown] the same address like are they the roommate but like it’s it’s out there there’s a much more visible

[50:00] [Ed] sign but you’re right you know and and i think that there’s a little bit of a kink to swinging
from the standpoint of tihi we’re doing something that’s secret right and we’re getting away with
something okay so there is a little bit of that novelty to it um totally dead that i get why
there are probably people in this winter community who’s like well yeah don’t take that away

[50:22] [Unknown] from me that’s kind of the fun part right i get it yeah i completely got that too and also

[50:29] [Phoebe] there are people that don’t want to have to worry like i’ve you know spoken with um

[50:34] [Unknown] somebody who works for a major series of lifestyle clubs that folks are heard of you’ve probably been

[50:41] [Phoebe] and she accidentally one day wrote to her kid school telling them how i would be late to pick them

[50:47] [Unknown] up or something from her work email address and had job protection services show up at her door

[50:53] [Phoebe] the next day so it’s like listen if you want to be if you think it’s kinky to be secret about your
identity like no one’s gonna take that away from you no one’s saying like sure you have to label
yourself as a swinger like you must declare your swinger relationship right but see you can
still keep it secret but the visibility means that for the people that like don’t want to keep
it cheaper secret or like just slip up and it comes out you shouldn’t have to worry about losing

[51:16] [Guest] their kids oh yeah 100% yeah i i went through a divorce and one of the first things that i was

[51:24] [Ed] concerned about was because i was i was looking for full custody was if this comes out it’s bad
enough i’m already a man who wants full custody of his children that’s already difficult in many
states but then you start to compound it with like well he’s a swinger so clearly there’s
it’s not a stable home environment um so yeah i i can absolutely see that and we we absolutely
had the conversation before our faces came out on our podcast on on youtube we were like
is there a morality clause in our employment do we have to worry about this stuff like what
what does this mean what are the potential fallout for all of this stuff and so yeah
we’ve we’ve had that conversation a number of times and oh yeah so far we’ve we’ve been okay

[52:20] [Phoebe] yeah yeah i’m glad that’s the case for you it’s it’s interesting you what your experience calls
to mind is this phenomenon called minority stress which is really just like sociologist speak for
the stress that somebody experiences when they hold an out group identity particularly one that
they feel the need to conceal so as you just share like i’m sure that that consideration that
calculus and even their persistent risk that i’m still as never completely gone is a source of
some anxiety for you but in fact studies have shown that non monogamous people actually do have
higher rates of anxiety and depression and it’s theorized to be because of the fear that
child productive services can they call up i’m gonna lose custody of my kids i’m gonna get
fired my HR job i’m gonna get or for i’m gonna get fired for my job or called into HR right so

[53:06] [Unknown] on and so forth right yeah feeling a little stressed there i know i thank you for acknowledging my
stress so we touched on a little bit in terms of how people can help but i want to ask it again

[53:25] [Ed] and that is who what are some of the ways that that people can help your program and then we’ve got
one more topic that we want to talk about because we’ve kind of we’ve danced around it a little bit
and we tend not to touch this topic but we’re gonna touch it today oh boy so stay stay tuned for that
um but but how can people help like what are some of the best ways for for people to help so um

[53:48] [Phoebe] we really love to invite people to just be involved across all all of our all of our work right so
join our email list show up for pure support we’ve got a book club that we’ve started running
quarterly which is all sorts of fun ways that you can plug in so again the best way to find those
open-dash love that org slash hello find our social media and everything um we’re also really
emphasizing this year the legislative advocacy work that we’re doing so once again those protect
people from discrimination on the basis of their family or relationship structure and that is
inclusive of folks in the lifestyle um just last week we ran a advocacy workshop training um and
published a comprehensive legislative advocacy toolkit that we worked on with a number of other
organizations and this really just walked people through step-by-step how do you actually pass this
bill in your city in your town how do you reach out to council members well how does the legislative
process work um and you’ll find everything you need there including like a sample email script that
you can use for reaching out camp council members the info packet that you can bring to the meeting
sample scripts for like giving testimony at a public hearing when your bill comes to the tour vote
so one of the most impactful and concrete and actionable and local and immediate things that
people can do right now is to start working on these non-discrimination protections so if you
visit our website open-dashlove.org slash legislative advocacy you can find that toolkit you can
also find a forum to um let us know that you’re interested in working on this work and we can
provide you with support we can meet with you to help walk you through the process connect to
with other organizers in your city so that’s one of the most concrete and actionable things um
otherwise keep your eyes peeled for the week of visibility coming up this summer we encourage
people to organize local in-person or virtual events in their community keep your eyes open for
the community survey coming later in the year and please do share that and then finally as I
touched on earlier we really do count on people’s financial support um we are community funded 97
percent of our contributions have come from individuals so far um we have not yet closed our
budget for the entirety of 2025 so we really do need folk support to make sure that not only can

[55:54] [Unknown] we finish the year but that we can continue to show up to continue to do this really important work

[55:59] [Phoebe] because there is a lot of work that needs to be done as we’ve touched on this conversation
um if folks are interested in making a larger contribution they can reach out to us
one of the benefits of being a bigger donor is you’re going to say how your money gets spent so
if you’re interested for example in helping fund a lifestyle specific free peer support session
I would really love to work with somebody and like slap their name on it um so lots of opportunities
to help not just support our work but actively shape our work um so you can find our donate page
open-loved.org slash donate and there’s also an email contact email on that page where you can
reach out if you’re interested learning a little bit more deeper conversation that’s fantastic

[56:38] [Guest] now let’s ask the question uh that you want to ask and then I’m going to use the
doctor uh Vivek Murphy I’m going to use his as a summary yeah I figured that would be good

[56:53] [Ed] okay one of the things that we have is a kind of unwritten sometimes written rule in swinging is
don’t talk about politics I’m going to break that rule just because we’ve been talking a lot about
legislation and laws and things that are going on in this country and funding funding for programs
and nonprofits things that are maybe equitable and inclusive and maybe the diversity of what’s going
on in in the lifestyle and non-monogamy how have you seen any direct impacts based on the last

[57:32] [Unknown] three weeks of the current administration yeah let me start with with where you started which

[57:39] [Phoebe] is that don’t talk about politics um listen I get that rule right like I go to sex parties too
I don’t want to hear people talking about gun control or like you know immigration while I’m
trying to get down right but we have to talk about politics at some point because what we are
doing is fundamentally political right like everything is political families are political relationships
are political sex is political and if we don’t talk about politics if we don’t claim our voice in
this conversation they are going to whatever they you want that to be they’re going to make the
rules for us right like we have to organize we have to get political otherwise nothing is going
to change or nothing is going to change we’re not going to have greater rights we’re not going to
have greater acceptance we’re going to continue to see lifestyle clubs getting shut down or
right by the police we’re going to continue to see people get cps caught on them like these are

[58:28] [Unknown] political issues we have to talk about politics now to ground that a little bit more into the actual

[58:33] [Phoebe] present political context right like we’re recording here February 2025 month two of the second
trump term um you know we don’t super know yet how this is going to play out certainly we’ve
seen a lot more direct attacks against other marginalized group particularly immigrants particularly
trans folks that obviously impacts on monogamous folks as well where like LGBTQ plus folks are
more likely to be nominogamous trans folks are more likely to have like chosen families and networks
of relationships and care outside of normative models right but in terms of a direct targeting
of nominogamy we still don’t know however we can speculate a little bit um as folks may know
the blueprint for the second trump administration the policy blueprint is project 2025 this is a
like 700 page document that outlines in excruciating detail the administration’s goals um for the second
term and the document starts with four promises right like these are the four pillars of all of their
policy book and the very first one of those promises is to restore restore the family to the center
point of American life and protect the children um and when they say the family let’s be very clear
they mean a heterosexual monogamous married couple with kids right so even if you’re you know if
you’re in the lifestyle and still and then otherwise a fairly monogamous looking partnership whether

[01:00:05] [Unknown] you’re married or not whether you’re heterosexual or not be aware that like this still means that

[01:00:10] [Phoebe] they want to squash us like they want to make sure that there are no lifestyle clubs left like they
will pass local ordinances they will pass state bills to shut these clubs down they want to make
sure that there is pornography like pornography is not accessible we’ve already seen states starting

[01:00:24] [Unknown] to raise um test bills to completely ban pornography going far beyond the existing states that have

[01:00:32] [Phoebe] already passed age verification laws which means that you’ve got to submit your personally to
identify identifying information into a database in order to look at porn and then have it attach

[01:00:42] [Unknown] to your identity which I certainly don’t want who knows how that gets compromised or he uses that

[01:00:48] [Phoebe] right to contraception is being called to the question right like I think contraception is
pretty important for folks in lifestyle for everyone really um no fault divorce is even being
floated by some like commentators on the on the right as being a target um wherein like you could
no longer just divorce your partner without cause you need to have some some cause um as I mentioned
Supreme Court um precedent is very much on the chopping block so just as Roe v. first Wade was
repealed so could Lawrence v. Texas which is a far less old precedent than Roe v. Wade was and
then it means that you could start seeing anti adultery laws enforced and criminal charges pressed
against people for participating in the lifestyle right so we don’t know but we have very real reason
to be concerned the one more thing I want to note too and I don’t necessarily know even like what
to say about this but like there I know that there are lifestyles that are supportive of the
current administration like I know I know I know that individual head of there yes I know donated
which I’m very grateful for there are probably listeners of your podcast that are supportive
of the current administration um I’m not going to touch on like the broader the broader stuff
but I do think it’s very important for folks to be aware that they may be putting themselves
their interests their community at risk and I would encourage people if they do want to remain
anchored into that political identity or in those political spaces to speak up to speak up um nobody
can like be on everything nobody can be across every issue this is an issue that if you’re
listening you’re probably participating in and so if you have the ear of people that
are conservative are you’re in conservative forums maybe speak up and be like hey this is
actually like kind of totally fine and okay and not hurting one and like essential American freedom
to do what I want with my body and who I want so I just want to say like I don’t want people to
be turned off like it’s no no surprise you know my deeper feelings towards
towards Trump being like queer Bay Area millennial polyamorous vegetarian that I am um but you know
I still want to speak with the folks that that are a little bit more on the magasite of things and
say like you you’ve got a role to play in this too and in some ways you’ve got an even greater

[01:03:03] [Ed] obligation yeah I mean if anything they they are the voice of reason within their party to be
able to say hey this this thing that you’re doing this this putting your thumb on this thing I’m
in that thing that’s that’s me and realize that while we don’t necessarily agree on all the other
things that you pointed out you know second amendment and immigration and whatever other hot
button topic it is anybody who’s listening to this podcast watching us on youtube more likely
than not is part of this umbrella group of non monogamy and there are issues that you brought up
especially contraception and a bunch of other things pornography the one that comes to mind for me
and we’ve we’ve talked about this a number of times and that’s even sex toys there are states
where owning or having shipped to your home a sex toy is illegal and so you could
face time because there are laws on the books and with the right district attorney they will
start pressing charges on those things so if you’re listening this is incumbent on you to help
protect the rest of the community and and think if anything think for yourself and think for your
fellow swingers about how is this really going to swing against us and what are we what are we
going to do how are we going to protect ourselves and protect our our fellow community members
from things that may be coming down and you may not agree with project 2025 or you agree with

[01:04:49] [Unknown] pieces of it the important thing is picking the things that you don’t agree with and making sure

[01:04:54] [Ed] that they don’t happen so yeah because they’re they’re never the Trump White House is never going to

[01:05:00] [Unknown] listen to me they might listen to you so if there are folks that are interested in chatting about

[01:05:05] [Phoebe] this like I’d love to like let’s do like a mega lifestyle political action committee right let’s
you know like let’s organize like let’s reach across the the aisles here and like let’s organize
for our shared interests that’s fundamental to organizing and this moment calls for it absolutely

[01:05:20] [Guest] couldn’t agree with you more I wanted to talk about or or or kind of wrap this up because I I really
loved what the the last surgeon general had said and this was came from Vivek Murphy and I heard
him on NPR and I was driving and so I was trying to get all was doing was doing a voice to text so

[01:05:44] [Unknown] I wasn’t typing while I was driving but he he was he was really focused or his his his last

[01:05:53] [Guest] words as he was exiting his his position was he’s he said I really I would love for all of us to
return to who we fundamentally are and get back in happiness by focusing on relationships purpose
and service and it just gives me chills to to say that and to repeat what he had said because
I think that’s just very profound and just very much needed right now very much needed so I
I loved this conversation so much that we’ve had with you today Brett and I I love what your
organization is doing we are going to continue to to push your organization in in in any way we can
and we’re looking for more ways to do that and so certainly when the study comes out and the
visibility comes out in July we’re going to be promoting that as well and gosh you know we’re
we’re starting to organize some some events we’ve got some ideas in our in our pocket so

[01:07:10] [Unknown] I have to do an event in July for sure oh 100% yeah yeah so any last words yeah
Brett before we do our final wrap up yeah well first of all thank you so much for your support

[01:07:27] [Phoebe] and thanks to the listeners I would be happy to hear from any of you you know we’re really
here to serve this community so reach out to us at in time info at open-love.org I’ll review
YouTube comments I make it called a little too woke and I’m happy to take it but yeah I mean
it’s hard it’s hard to top that right at the end of the day like what what is there but connection
but but joy and so yeah you know I really think that a just enjoyous future is achievable it’s a
multi-generational project but I really think that this is this is essential to it and I think

[01:08:01] [Ed] this work matters yeah we do too great we do too thanks for tuning in we appreciate you joining
our community don’t forget your homework tell a friend about our show and leave a review in comment
if you wish you can also leave us a voicemail at 916-538-0482 or you can contact us at
Swinger University and if you want to be really really anonymous we have a cool voicemail system
right there on our website where you can leave us a 90 second message and we can even use it in
the episodes if you want to ask us a question it’s just burning to find out what we think about it

[01:08:44] [Guest] please leave us a message I want to throw in before you say that final catchy line that we are
going to provide everyone with all the great links that Brett was calling out today during the
interview those will be in our show notes in case you’re listening to the podcast and we they’ll
also be on YouTube as well and so don’t fret we will have all of those great links for you

[01:09:14] [Unknown] yes so as we say keep learning keep growing and keep it sexy oh one last thing before you go

[01:09:42] [Ed] if this episode helped you in any way the single best thing you can do to support the show is leaving
a rating and review it takes 60 seconds and helps new people find us when they’re searching for

[01:09:54] [Unknown] relationship education and we’ve made it easy visit swingeruniversity.com forward slash review

[01:10:04] [Ed] all the instructions are there thank you for being part of this community we’ll see you again soon