Ed and Phoebe Full Swap with Toronto Unicorn

[00:00] [Guest] Hi, I’m Ed, I’m Phoebe, and we’re going to be talking with Toronto Unicorn today,
finding out a little bit more about her and what she does, and her neck of the woods,
because we’re quite a bit south from her, and things are a little different here than there,
and we’d like to find out how should we make a vacation up to Toronto, and how much fun would it be?

[00:22] [Phoebe] To slander university, with Ed and Phoebe.

[00:32] [Ed] Our podcast, we started our podcast about, oh, three years ago now, didn’t really actively market it,
and where we’re under, you know, the cover of no faces, right? And we decided in last year
that we were just going to come out. We checked our clauses with our work and we decided we’re safe,
and you know what, we value the community, we’ve been part of this community for 10 years,
and we really want to bring more light and focus to hominogamy, and how people define their
relationships in different ways. It’s so diverse, and it’s so wonderful, and the community is
amazing. I mean, it’s not just about the sex, people think Swinger, and it’s all about sex,
but it’s not. I mean, it’s there, obviously, but you have this sense of freedom to
be part of this greater community, and feel and express the way you like to, and do what you want.
There’s just no, like, layer or curtains over you. It’s amazing. I just love it. So,
we really want to support the community and, you know, start removing some of those, you know,
negative stigmas on, you know, a marriage that doesn’t look like, you know, the normal two-person

[01:59] [Unknown] marriage, right, between a man and a woman. So, that’s what we are doing with our podcast now,

[02:06] [Phoebe] trying to be… And how do you feel with your faces out there, and actually representing this
community? Because I know I get the same sense of, I feel as in the pride representing this community,
or at least one face of it, and so I want to get your take like, do you ever do regrets about showing

[02:19] [Guest] your face? No, not so far, not so far. But we also have realized that we’re not as big as a lot of
other podcasts, and we’re growing, we’re growing pretty quickly now in the last year.
So, you know, there’s still opportunity for bad things to happen. We just haven’t seen them yet.

[02:40] [Ed] So far, it’s been really, really positive. It has been really positive, yeah. And that’s fair,

[02:46] [Phoebe] right? That’s fair to say, hey, man, so far so good, but like, you know, we’re like, you know,
five miles down the long highway, like, let’s see how this goes. That’s fair. They also said,
I might regret not having kids and stuff, and I’m like, well, so far I don’t, but like,
I was told that also, and I have not regretted that point either.
All right. Yeah. Well, that’s fantastic. I like, I just got familiar with your podcast recently.
In fact, I just became familiar with podcasts in general recently. I had never really listened to
any. And so then I created one without having a history of listening to them. So, you know,
I am learning as I go. And so I did take a peek at yours. And I noticed that with yours,
even though you’re offering information in the same space, you guys come out with a much more,
like, I love the name university because it’s like researched. You come with research.
When I heard Ed talk about the different materials and condom, I was like, no one will ever
expect this on my channel or my podcast because I would be like, oh, that’s book smart shit.
I don’t want to, you know, I’m more like, you know, you’ll feel it is worthy. Like, you know,
so I talk differently than you do as everybody relates differently. And so I found it to be really

[03:59] [Guest] refreshing also. Nice. Yeah. Yeah. We try and keep it a little less nerdy than full nerd. But,
yeah, it is. It’s very, very much research based and very much of an educational podcast.
But we like to have fun too. And not lose so much of the fun in the message of what that podcast

[04:22] [Ed] is about. Exactly. Exactly. And I like appealing to the logical mind, you know, the reasons why

[04:32] [Unknown] and honestly, a lot of the stuff that we present is, I don’t know, my own frustrations of

[04:39] [Ed] and experiences, right? I had to do all this research on condoms because I was having an issue
with them. So hence the deep dive into condom research. Yeah, exactly. And to be honest with you,

[04:52] [Phoebe] some of those things really matter when you explain the functional reasons, the logical brain as you
said, you’re connecting to somebody who might be otherwise completely lost. How do I pick a
fucking condom? That one says mega. That one says, you know, bam, I don’t know. Maybe I’m, you know,
there are dots on marketing. But for them, they’re like, well, I feel famed today. Maybe I’ll
pick famed. That’s like the wrong one, right? So exactly. You could help out there. So, and again,
you guys also do swing or cruises and lifestyles. I’ve never gone to one. Oh my gosh, you should go.

[05:28] [Ed] Now, to clarify, we have, we have been on, oh, let’s see, we’ve been on how many cruises now?
Three, four, three, three. We’ve never been to the big lifestyle resorts like in Jamaica or
Mexico, but I will say we’ve interviewed about 80 people about them. And we just can’t pull the trigger
because from where we live, it’s a big travel commitment. It’s a big cost commitment. And for,
and you can’t leave the resort. And honestly, I like to explore our own explorer. And, you know,
you can’t do that. So, um, and there’s, and they can, they, they have their pros and cons. And we
have episodes and blogs on that too. But we love the cruises because they’re more affordable. And
you’re like 3000 people, sometimes 6000 people. And you can find something for everybody. It’s,
it’s like create your own vacation. Honestly, it’s amazing. You would love it.

[06:31] [Phoebe] Is it even a full takeover of Swinger lifestyle? Or sometimes it like a half pasties?

[06:36] [Guest] No, no, so, so the, the whole boat is lifestyle friendly. Um, there, there’s no civilians on board.

[06:44] [Phoebe] And other than the crew, we’re starting to interrupt you, but I, I mean, I’m coming from ground zero.

[06:49] [Guest] What is lifestyle friendly mean on a crew? Yeah, yeah. So the, the, there are people
who are nudists and are just comfortable being around swingers. So not everybody on the ship
is an actual full swap swinger or soft swap swinger. But you’re, you’re not going to mix your
Disney crew with this crew. You’re not going to confuse this with a, uh, a carnival fun line,
kind of a ship. It’s, it’s definitely geared towards being naked,

[07:24] [Unknown] having naked fun with naked people. And when the ship is a mile from port,

[07:29] [Ed] everyone can be naked at the pool. And until you get close to port again, you can be naked all day
long at the pool. You can’t be naked in the hallways. You have to wear a row over bathing suit or,
you know, whatever. And of course, in the restaurants, but it’s, there’s a lot of naked all the time.

[07:48] [Unknown] And they have playrooms outside too. So if you want to get it on and the breeze and then in the
ship air, it’s crazy. Yeah, it’s pretty neat. There’s like a lot of play areas. Can you have
stuff anywhere on the screen pretty much? All right. We need your help so that your community,

[08:11] [Guest] the very one you love and have so much fun with can also find our show. Here’s a really easy way
to do that. If you’re listening on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, hit that follow button and leave us
a rating. If you’re watching on YouTube, subscribe and turn on notifications. We can’t emphasize
enough how much this helps the swing our community. And it truly is up to you to make that happen.
It makes a massive difference in whether new listeners can even find us. And here’s the thing.
When someone searches Swinger Podcast, the algorithm doesn’t care how good our content is or how
long we’ve been around. It only cares about ratings and reviews. We’d appreciate it. And your

[09:00] [Unknown] community will really appreciate it. Thanks for listening. They have designated areas. Because they’re

[09:11] [Ed] staffed for your safety. And then the staff make sure everything is clean. And they change the
sheets for you. And they take care of the trash. So it’s actually really nice. Yeah. Wow.

[09:23] [Phoebe] I can imagine that that could feel like a very large boat at times. But if you have a bad hookup,

[09:28] [Unknown] it could feel like a small boat. Also, we’re like, okay, well, we’re stuck with this people
at the same like nightlife every night. You know, so that actually brings me into the culture,

[09:38] [Phoebe] right, of the spinner lifestyle is be careful. Where are you step and how you step on people?
Because this is a very close knit community as many will learn some the hard way. And so you
really do want to make sure every encounter is respectful, even if you don’t want to see somebody
again. You know, I personally run into people over and over and over again that I didn’t plan to

[10:00] [Ed] see again. So very, very much so. Yes. Yes. There’s a lot of, you know, just a lot of social
graces that you have to, you know, be aware of. Yeah. Yeah. It’s a new etiquette, a new sub,

[10:16] [Phoebe] it’s a subculture that comes with almost its own, you know, what’s it called? I guess,
bill of freedom? I don’t know what you want to call it. It’s just we, we come with lifestyle.
You’re expected to be non-judgmental towards others and accepting. And it’s kind of like,
it’s like, it’s like, it’s unwritten, but written rules. Because like, if you violate them,
like, it’s a serious thing. But like, so your podcast, my content, because I have a podcast
and a YouTube channel is really here to try and educate people so that they can be,
the big drive in this lifestyle. They’re not going to fumble the ball and fuck up and lose
their erection to a free condom that was, you know, one size too small. If they follow us,

[10:53] [Ed] they’re going to be in better shape. Agreed? Agreed. Because those opportunities are very
fleeting sometimes. Because the average swingers are really only in the lifestyle about 18 months.
They get in and they get out. It’s pretty rare that somebody stays in the community for years

[11:11] [Phoebe] and years. Really? I didn’t. I didn’t know that. Yeah. Like a personal out. And a

[11:18] [Unknown] donor is it something you’ve seen in your research? We have a really good friend who’s a lifestyle

[11:22] [Ed] promoter. She throws parties. She used to do it every month, but she does three big events
where she gathers six to eight hundred people for every event three or four times a year. And
she’s been doing this for 20 years. And that’s the the statistics that she gave us when she sees

[11:39] [Phoebe] the turnover. It’s it’s pretty incredible. Yeah. Because I know that for me, I’ve been the
lifestyle for about three years now, roughly. So I know what I see and what I don’t see. But I
don’t know what happens when they leave the club. The sex club was like, I see the happy
swingers at the sex club. But like, I don’t have to go home with them and have the fields, you know?
So it’s interesting to think that some people can they can spend a few years doing this. And it
doesn’t mean that they’re like forever life, you know, they’re always swingers that they can
actually just fluidly go in and out. That’s very that’s good for some people to hear. Yeah. Yeah.

[12:17] [Guest] Yeah. We talk about it from the standpoint that you can get to a point in the lifestyle where
you’re just not comfortable with it anymore or just you know, it doesn’t do anything for you.
And it’s okay. You can change hobbies. You know, you don’t have to stick with it just because you
started down the path. And how you play can drastically change from month to month to year to year.
So, you know, make it what is comfortable for you?

[12:44] [Phoebe] You say how you play good change. Can you explain it?

[12:49] [Ed] Yeah. So you may start off. We started off soft swap because full swap was too intimidating.
Didn’t know it was really going to happen. And we quickly, you know, moved into full swap after
a few experiences because it really didn’t seem like that was a difficult transition. It really
seemed kind of natural. And it also depends on your situation and the couple of year you’re with,
right? And so now we gosh, we’re in it about 10 years. And I’m growing comfortable with just
watching and watching was very difficult for me in the very beginning. And now with the right
couple in the right environment, you know, there are certain parties that there are familiar
faces and the environment is familiar. And I’m comfortable in that environment where I can just
sit back and eat popcorn and watch have sex with somebody. And that’s totally fine. I’m loving it.
And so that’s very new to me in the last six months. So that’s kind of cool and new. And I didn’t
think I was by either. And so now I define myself as by. I’m enjoying more woman experiences. And I’m
really wanting to seek that out. Like I’m I’m actively wanting to have those more of those
experiences. I’ve had enough thick. I think I just want some more pussy.

[14:18] [Phoebe] I just have to say that most women I know who have identified as great change when they enter
the lifestyle. But like, for example, I have I have never had even an interest in women. And then
now, you know, I like pussy like the best of them. I don’t know. It happened quickly. You know,
and my friends are my YouTube channel. Straight woman has never had she said that she had a phobia
of the vagina. She’s like, it’s just like, I don’t want to go in there. Like she just know.
Anyway, she’s found herself in a kind of like a thrumple situation with another woman
and another guy who they all are into each other individually and as a group. And she’s like
into this specific woman. And she’s like, what the fuck? Like what the fuck? Like I was straight,
you know, and she’s like, what does this mean? And I was like, you know what? It doesn’t
fucking mean anything because once we stopped putting ourselves in these little tiny boxes and
we instead pursue like a lifestyle of hedonistic pleasure or hedonism, suddenly we don’t have to
keep defining what pleasure currently is to us. We can just say that we’ve decided to seek a
like a pleasure, a life of pleasure. And we don’t have to keep changing what that means to us.

[15:23] [Ed] You know? Oh yeah, I like that. We don’t have to. We just decide to seek a life of pleasure.
I like that. Yeah. Yeah, I had that identity crisis years ago. And you know, you
the definitions of, you know, oh gosh, I’m bi from the waist up. I’m bi from the waist down
or I’m bi selectively bi or blah, you know, and the definition on the profile change so many times.
And then finally I just said, oh, screw it. I’m just going to say I’m bi. And really honestly,
took one of my friends to say, you know, just because you like women, you find them attractive and

[15:59] [Unknown] you enjoy kissing them and following their breasts and whatever else that you find pleasurable,

[16:04] [Ed] doesn’t mean you’re into all women. So don’t put pressure on yourself like you go to a party and
just because you have identify that or you’ve got that on your profile that all of a sudden every
woman’s going to be attractive and that you need to get with every woman. And I’m,
because she’s like, you don’t want to get with every man. And I go, no, she’s like, well,
there you go. And for some reason, once that she said it, the pressure was lifted off. And then

[16:27] [Phoebe] I was like, all right, I’m free. Yeah. Well, what I found interesting is most of my female friends
in the lifestyle, I don’t play with. You’re just the girl that fuck beside me. Yeah. And so I’m
also by, but I’m like, I’m not going to be by with you. I’m like, well, I got you.
So it’s funny how, how much at the beginning, I thought it was so much about sex, but you can
exist as a person in this lifestyle and have your sexual contribution be secondary, you know. Yeah.

[17:02] [Guest] Yeah. Right. I really love our community. And so much of sexuality is fluid from day to day,
from event to event, you know, sometimes you just don’t feel sexy. And or you don’t feel

[17:16] [Unknown] that anybody else is sexy, which is often the case. So, you know, it’s okay to just hang out and

[17:24] [Guest] have a drink and have sexy conversation. Maybe, maybe not tonight, but maybe next time. So
you kind of leave the door open. And I think that’s the thing that we really enjoy about the

[17:35] [Unknown] lifestyle is it’s okay. Whatever thing you have, whatever sexuality you have at the moment

[17:44] [Guest] at that time, everybody’s going to be like, cool. Good for you. Yeah. Yeah.

[17:52] [Phoebe] It’s true. I can be like, I’m excited to be, you know, a muff diver today. Like,
you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, people really judge,
it’s like, that’s what’s happens when you get people a blank slate, you know, of judgment
free arena. You play where you want suddenly, they want to play in places they didn’t know they
wanted to play in. Oh, for sure. I happen. I happen to mention this almost everywhere I go,
because it’s so important. But every straight man also that or identified man has also confessed
to me that they have either already stuck to Dick or they want to stuck to Dick. I have found
I like to say it this way. Like, there’s usually just one male exception that I have
that has never really confided in me that that hasn’t been something you want. But the what
I’m finding is the more sexuality becomes more comfortable and the more group dynamics come.
Suddenly it’s so much, it’s not so much about that. It’s a sexual organ. It’s, it’s John’s penis
instead of a dick, you know, it’s just like you’re, you’re allowed to touch and make moaning,
and it just becomes, guys, I’m telling you that they are just as fluid as we are when we
join this lifestyle, the more the more you go judge them, you know, and I just love it to love
to see it because I feel bad for even, you know, being closeted or helping the closeted feeling,
any any amount of my life because that time is over, you know, and it’s time to get out and live

[19:19] [Ed] your life. So I agree. I agree. It’s time to explore. I know. I want to know about

[19:27] [Phoebe] Toronto. So I am, you know, in the sex positive lifestyle downtown Toronto, which is in Canada,
very cold in the winter, but we have luckily about five or four or five different sex clubs in
this name. I was a 20, 30 minute drive. Yeah, so we’re very fortunate. To the point where we’re like,
what mood are you with? Do you want to dance or do you want to be a spa? Like we have those kind
of problems to decide which sex club by wearing to the night. Right? So I feel positive, like, you
know, we’re feasting. Where are you from? What’s the California and we’re in Sacramento?
Oh, okay. Well, I know many swingers in California, but it sounds like you just don’t have

[20:12] [Guest] the clubs, right? Yeah. In our particular county in Sacramento, we are not allowed to have sex
clubs. As a matter of fact, strip clubs won’t even allow you to serve alcohol at the same time.
So if there’s naked boobies or naked full nudity, there is no alcohol.

[20:29] [Ed] It sucks. And that is also true in the county where San Francisco is.

[20:36] [Guest] Yeah. Yeah. Most strip clubs are pretty limited in terms of what you can do, but in terms of
swing clubs, Sacramento County will not allow any kind of sex clubs, but San Francisco does get
away with it. And they have, we have one club there called Twist. It’s quite popular because it’s

[20:54] [Ed] pretty much the only game in town. Yeah, we like that club. It’s nice. They have a DJ. They have
food. They have a little fireplace in there. They have a stripper pole dance floor. And then
these, this locker room that is kind of in the middle where you transition from the dance floor
and the bar area. And of course, it’s BYOB. And then you put your stuff in the lockers and you
put on a towel and you head to the playroom. And it’s like a sultans, oh gosh, bedroom.
There’s the floors are just covered with nice beds and sheets and stuff. And there’s curtains
and the lighting is all moody and sexy. It’s fabulous. And it’s very popular.

[21:49] [Guest] Here’s why we sail on Virgin. It’s adults only. No kids screaming at breakfast. No

[21:57] [Unknown] family buffet lines. Just champagne at noon. Late night pool parties and people who actually want

[22:04] [Guest] to be there. The vibe. Think boutique hotel that happens to float. Tattoo parlors, drag brunch,

[22:13] [Unknown] restaurants you’d actually pay for on land. Plus, when you’re looking to connect with other

[22:19] [Guest] couples who know how to have fun, let’s just say Virgin attracts a very specific type of adventurous.

[22:27] [Unknown] No wonder bread cruisers here. Just your people. Fantastic. Well, we have like five. I’ll tell you

[22:38] [Phoebe] my favorite one is a waste of alcohol. It’s downtown Toronto. It is a kind of a taken over
old mansion. So it’s three floors and it has this outdoor heated pool open all year round. And so
I was there, you know, twice this week already as this steam would just be rising off our bodies
to the point where I was like, look, I’m an angel because the steam and like when you’re making out
in this steam, it is just fantastic. It is spectacular. And then you go in. There’s a sauna,
a hot tub. There’s multiple floors, different playrooms and dungeon. They have spectators.
You know, so there’s lots of lots to do. So that’s where I like to go the most. We also have
the X club NYX lounge and M4, which are more dance club type of. There’s no pool. There’s no
spa and there’s they all have a different feel to them. So some of them are nightclub dance clubs
with a back room. Some of them are more swing or social clubs and M4 I find to be a bit more
in your face intense in terms of they have like structured three or four hour events and then
they close the club. They clean it for like a couple hours and they open it for another structured
time. And so that’s different than all these things. As a waste as you pay for all day, you go
you in and out. People leave for dinner, go back. It’s a relaxed thing. And M4, you’re there,
or at your gang bang retreat essentially. So it’s whatever you’re in the room for, if you need
to get something quick, maybe that’s that’s the mood you’re in. But so luckily, just in case any
of your listeners don’t know or viewers, I have done some video tours of all of these clubs
in Toronto and the surrounding area and I put them on YouTube so that everybody can see the inside
of these clubs, including the areas when they were closed. Because honestly, how could you not
take a peek, you know, and there’s glory holes. There’s female glory holes at club M4, or you
could stick your ass pussy and at one side and just, you know, wait for something to happen
on the other. It’s just it’s fantastic to see the variety that’s offered. So as a single woman
in the lifestyle, I’m able to go to these clubs with my friends, we get dressed up and dance
sometimes. So it’s just kind of like normal clubbing life, but with the, you know, the elevated
level of sex positive. And we don’t feel judged anymore. We don’t feel judged by our bodies.
And so we, I shake it as if there’s no jiggle where there shouldn’t be jiggle. And it doesn’t matter.
Because it’s finally, you know, you take the benefits of the sex positive swing or lace style,
which is the accepting environment. And you add that into, you know, now you’re clubbing.
And now I’m dancing on a super pool. Like I give zero shit. You know, we’re before I might
go for self-conscious. No, this time I’m just letting my hair fly. So I love it. So that I was

[25:21] [Ed] in culture and Toronto. Well, how about, you know, how it sounds very safe. Sounds like you’re

[25:28] [Unknown] having a great time with your friends. And so then is the single male element not

[25:35] [Ed] rude? Are they respectful? Do you have to worry about that? Someone, so many people are concerned
about that dynamic in the club. Talk about some of that. So every club has different rules about

[25:48] [Phoebe] a single man. But for the most part, there’s usually nights of the week where they’re not allowed.
So for a waste stock lounge, they’re not allowed Fridays or Saturdays. And so it’s just couples
and single women those nights. Then there’s other nights where men are allowed, but they might not be
allowed on the third floor of a wasis, which is basically where all the sex happens, unless they’re
with somebody, a partner of the opposite sex. So there’s even if they’re allowed in the club,
there’s still not allowed in certain spaces. And that’s because when you do allow single men into
all of the club, those are what we call DTF nights. And they walk around holding their dick,
watching everyone, and not everyone’s in the mood for that. So you know, we kind of keep those
to very intense nights, let the single men roam free those nights. And then, you know, you know,
give me a little more eye contact next time I hang out with you. So I love the theme nights,
though. But one of the most surprising things you will learn about sex clubs is that the single
women from I’m a single woman and I have single women friends. And there is consensus, okay? We do
not like sex clubs when single men are not allowed, because the amount of attention we get when

[26:58] [Guest] it’s just couples and us is insufficient. I would do more free days ago, unicorn night,

[27:05] [Phoebe] because he was shaved. I was in the right mood. I came home empty handed. Think about there,
single woman wearing a unicorn horn on unicorn night. No one asked for sex. Oh wow.
Oh my gosh. I would need more connection, but still no one asked, you know. I’m telling you,
this is why we go with single men are there. So even if you’re a couple looking for a unicorn,
go on night to a single men are there. That’s where they are, because we don’t want to work so
fucking hard. I don’t want to have to go through one woman just to get a dick. I can get a dick on my

[27:39] [Guest] own, you know. Right. That makes sense. And well, what’s a little surprising about that is the whole
name unicorn came about from the rarity, like the impossible, you know, hunt. And yet,
here you were, gorgeous unicorn walking around a club and nobody was trying to bang. Like,
well, there was probably somebody, but you clearly went home empty handed, so to speak. So

[28:07] [Unknown] wow. Yeah, that’s interesting. And it’s not a fluke. I have a YouTube video because I vlog

[28:13] [Phoebe] about going to sex club. I don’t know if you guys, if you’re viewers or even you know that,
I actually blog every time I go to a sex club, the before I say what I’m nervous about, whatever,
or who I’m meeting. And then I show the after. And sometimes it’s a good night, sometimes it’s not
a good night, but I have gone to many unicorn nights. Some were fantastic. And some I titled the video
was a unicorn or third real night. Oh, so let’s just say there’s a little bit of a misconception
about how unicorns are are approach. And maybe it’s because with maybe a ratio of five unicorns
for her 50 to 70 couples. Maybe no one thinks it’s worth their effort because there’s so much
competition. Therefore, no one fucking asks. Like, I have people who are friendly and inquire if I was
opened up to playing like later, but no one had on me. No, I was okay. Here’s the other thing that
kind of was weird. I had a couple I knew who I might sleep with and a couple that I that were
viewers to my channel. And I had introduced them as a potential match because I’m a matchmaker in

[29:16] [Unknown] the club. And I thought, hmm, I could be with both of them. So I could have a five of them.

[29:22] [Phoebe] And I’m leveling up here, you know, and what’s funny is it fell apart. It fell apart. They
both couples hooked up, but with different people. And I was left with, okay, no, nothing in my vagina.
And I was like, okay, I want to be handed. Oh, so that’s a trick. I see unicorns can strike

[29:42] [Ed] out too. That’s so interesting because I keep hearing over and over and over again how couples
start off with a third. And the third is usually a woman. And so I guess I don’t know. I got to be

[29:55] [Guest] hit and miss. I wonder if either the dynamic in the lifestyle has changed over time from like when
we first started where that was really the thing. Or or it’s just too intimidating to walk up to
a an attractive single woman and make that connection. Like maybe everybody feels safer behind a

[30:14] [Unknown] keyboard making that connection. Yeah. That’s the thing about the lifestyle too is you really have

[30:22] [Ed] to grow into your confidence. We did that as well. If you’re an introvert, we both identify as
introverts, but we’ve learned to be amnaverts and we have to turn it on. It’s it’s almost like I
step into an acting job. It’s not, but it’s it’s not who I really am 24 seven, right? I prefer to be
quiet and then to myself, but in the right social setting, I need a lot of activity, a lot of stimulation
to bring me up because it’s very a lot of social interaction can be depleting. So if there’s not a lot
of music, a lot of people, I I have to feed off of that. Like kind of like maybe I’m a social vampire.
I don’t know what you call that, but it’s draining. And so I I’ve learned to adapt, right? Because
you have to it’s a social environment. You have to be able to to do that and and and ask for what you
want. Right. I never used to ask for what I want. I got third of having shitty sexual experiences and
I was like, screw that. I’m going to say, do this. I want that, you know, harder, faster, slower,
you know, flip me over, right? Because we’re there to have a pleasurable experience. And if you can’t
ask for what you want, you’re going to be disappointed because someone once said a long time ago,
you’re in charge of your own orgasm, right? So the lifestyle is really taught me to be very
confident, be more of an extrovert and ask for what I want. And to learn what you want. Yes.

[32:06] [Phoebe] Then to fill their fantasies, I was like, so what can I cook yet with? And they’re like,

[32:11] [Guest] I’m like, well, do you like rough sex? They’re like, what do you mean? Like not everyone. Some people

[32:16] [Phoebe] know, but they’ll look on the look of pondering on people’s faces. We’ve asked what they like and
sex is confusing to me because I’m like, wow, we’ve got so far to go still. Yes.
But then when we land the play, they’re like, okay, I want this and I want to be touched and I
want to be, you know, reaffirmed affirmations. I don’t want to grating like they can be clear.
Then I do my little hustle thingy, which again, is not for money. I do this for promo,
whatever, for what does that work? Pro bono. Pro bono. Pro bono. I like that.
Right. So I basically match make up these clubs and my friends, I help them have gangbangs and
stuff on the DTS at the sex club. They’re down to fuck night. And so I better order. I’m like,
okay, so you want, you know, you want to be choked, you want to be called a dirty whore? Like, so
one girl left. And I’m telling you, I had so much going on that I had to go to Whiteport because
I would have to write down one girl’s rules, limits, whatever on one side. And then turn it
around. The other one says no anal collar or like, you know, the other what they want.
And I would literally just like board up and greet men with the, you know,
on board, even that they need it to be invited into the gangbang. And I would monitor it.
I would make sure condos. And, uh, nice.

[33:32] [Ed] The exact experience they wanted. So this is so cool. Wait, so then where did this take place?
In the club or in a, like, out of hotel that you arranged. It started with my drive spell,

[33:45] [Phoebe] you know, like, I would get many and I was looking around. I was like, you know,
you could just help you. You see something. You’re like, I’m an extra bird, right?
I’m somebody who’s like a matchmaker. You know, I could do this. And so I’m like,
if only that person would talk to that person or, you know, and so now I wasn’t having sex,
I didn’t have sex for a few months and I was still going to the clubs regularly.
And so I would be using my time to help my friends fucking stuff. But I got so much
fulfillment out of it. Like, truly enjoyed watching and helping and facilitating.
Because I also taught them how to, I don’t want to, you know,
sound like I have an ego, but how to be better at sex for themselves too.
And so one of the examples is I was, because I lean over these situations. I’m part of them
at the scene, even if I’m not touching. And so sometimes I’ll say to the woman, you know,
are you enjoying it? And I’m like, make sure you let him know that, right? Because if she’s
sitting there not saying anything, the guy’s not getting any feedback, I’m like the voice.
I’m the third, I’m the backseat driver being like, hey, have you said he’s dick feels nice yet?
Because I haven’t heard it. And sometimes she’s like, oh, it feels good, right?
And then I’m like, you know, is he doing a good job eating you out? And she’s like, you know,
like, what can he do differently? Oh, a little more pressure. And so he’s like, oh, yeah.
So I’m like, okay, she’s learning how to ask for what she wants. And he’s,
and she’s also giving him or her the opportunity to deliver, which is always a hard thing for

[35:10] [Unknown] me. You know, so that’s so cool. I like what you’re doing. That’s, I’m, you’re marketing this,

[35:19] [Ed] right? As a service? Because I think this is really important. You’re like sex coach with,

[35:29] [Phoebe] gosh, the other word. I can’t be a therapist, but I’m a coach. You just call yourself a sex catalyst.

[35:38] [Ed] Yeah. You just kick the party off. She’s like also like a boner and pussy whisperer too.

[35:44] [Phoebe] That too. She’s like, and here’s the fun part. I also have some people who I dominate in the
middle of these scenes that I run. So one of them is a, as a woman named, I call her Miss
Gile Valentine. She’s in a male female partnership. And sometimes they come to the club together
and she wants a gang band and her husband and her boyfriend wants either watch or help
participate. And so I’ll pick the men all, you know, run the thing. Then I’ll walk in and I’ll
grab her hair. And are you being a good girl for them? And I’ll like shove her head on her dick
and make them, you know, I’m like, don’t, don’t be gentle with her. Like I’ll walk around and be like,
make sure you treat her like a slutter. She won’t feel victimized. Like I’m literally like mental
fuck, like mental psychology, mental mind fucks to be like giving them the psychological shit that
they asked for. Like not, I don’t call her a slut. She wants me to call her a slut. Exactly.
So I was like getting so much fulfillment out of literally just pushing her, pulling her hair,
like slapping her ass, like I would finger her while she was like taking a bunch of men’s
dicks in their mouth. And at one point I’ve heard her talking and I said, if I can hear you speaking,
you’re not sucking dick. So like that was her clue to get back on the dick because I wasn’t there
to, you know, have a mediocre slut. I was there to offer up a high class slut. And so that’s how I
would treat her from people, right? Because we have this dynamic where this is just how it goes,
right? I’m not a horrible person. I just, we have this dynamic. So yeah, there’s so much more to it
sometimes than just for me watching and helping match make sometimes I’m in the middle of it.

[37:12] [Ed] Nice. Yeah. Yeah. It’s like sexual fantasy island. Yeah. About that sexual fantasy consultant maybe

[37:20] [Phoebe] or like, you know, like how do you, because I can give advice. For example, here’s a great example.
Somebody I know in the lifestyle confessed after some reluctant, you know, reluctant
their fantasy. And they said, don’t worry, I’ve asked my husband to go make sure it happens. And
so she told me what it was. And I was like, oh, that, that it can’t happen that way. I’m sorry,

[37:36] [Unknown] it can’t happen that way. What, you know, she wanted to be alone. She wanted to be standing in the

[37:41] [Phoebe] sex club. And she wanted a man to come up behind her and not say anything to her. And like grab
her finger, her, whatever. Don’t. And I was like, honey, they don’t have consent.
Well, he can get, no, your husband can’t get consent. So you would need to have a
consensual discussion, maybe in the whole way with some people, give them your fantasy, let them
come and discover you. I’m like, that’s the only way that this would be. And I said, if you otherwise
tried, you may go home with not getting fucked, do not know why. And it’s not because you’re not
attractive. It’s because people don’t want to go to jail. Like people don’t want to be like, oh,
I’m going to, is that the right girl that I was going to walk up to and just finger? Is that
one or that? Well, you know, no, no, I’m not going to do that, hopefully. So I like to help people
because sometimes their fantasies are their fantasies. But when you try to actually bring them to
life, they don’t see the, I would call them workflow issues. Yeah, the work list by day. So
fantasy drunken by night. But yeah, it’s one of those is where I like to help because I want

[38:44] [Unknown] them to have those fantasies and they don’t feel very, they can’t. That’s fabulous. And I’ve heard
several podcasts try husband’s coordinate gang bangs for their women and it is work. I mean,

[38:59] [Ed] there is some definite coordination to that. And I commend you for for doing that for others
because that’s fabulous. I mean, they get to show up for the fantasy and they don’t have to do
all that vetting and that’s planning. That’s pretty nice. And here’s an extra element that I

[39:18] [Phoebe] didn’t mention yet. But I actually have a very, I don’t know how to word this, but I come across
on my whole YouTube channel with a very, like an admiration and respect for men. I studied women
studies in university and wrote papers on how men were oppressed under patriarchy because it’s
also worth mentioning not just the other side, right? And so I have always been in this lifestyle
to represent the single man as well and their needs and their issues too. And so when I run a
scene, I have hard limits for my for the people I help because they have hard limits, no anal, right?
Whatever. My hard limit is that I’m not there to ruin anyone’s mind. And if someone is not
welcome at a gang bang, there’s polite ways to disinvite them. We’re not going to embarrass anybody
if they’re dick doesn’t work. Like I say this to the people and they consent before I’ll continue.
Because these are real people, real guys that have shown up to take a chance. And I see the nervousness

[40:08] [Unknown] and vulnerability in them, or maybe other people don’t. Right. And I’m an empath too. I feel it,

[40:14] [Phoebe] right? And so for me, I want those men, no matter if their dick bails them or not,
to feel supported, to feel invited and that they were part of something fun and not that they are,
you know, I’m not going to lie, I’ve seen people discard men in the middle of a scene because
their dick went down. You can imagine that that happens because they have it, you know,
your dick’s down, we need a new dick, we need a new dick. Anyway, I understand, but that poor
person now is going to go home with that feeling of being working nothing more than his erection.
Right. Right. And so I just, I couldn’t, I couldn’t facilitate something like that. So for me,
I like that it’s really well balanced on all of the sides as well. And I also ask the men,
what is it that you like? Do you want to come in or, you know, do you want to come in or
well, they’re looking for someone to come in on a throat, like, let me match you up because

[41:02] [Unknown] it’s, it’s the guys are there for something too. Yeah. Wow. I love that. Nobody does that.

[41:09] [Guest] Checking calendar and travel trips to Toronto.

[41:14] [Phoebe] Thank you. You come to Toronto. I would be happy to facilitate whatever scene you could come up with,
but I would have to be, I would have to be able to weigh in on the night that you show up.
You can’t have a gang bang on like a random Monday. Yeah, you got to have the right players in

[41:30] [Ed] the club to do something like that. So one of the clubs is a spa and like scenario. The other one
is more of a get down, get busy, you know, and, you know, every three or four hours than,
then they have to clean it from the next group of people that come in. What about,

[41:51] [Unknown] there’s three more clubs, right? Hey, they’re podcast listeners.

[42:00] [Guest] You’ve been tuning into our episodes, but have you ever wondered about the steamy details of
our adventures or maybe hungry for some sultry erotic stories? Well, guess what? We’ve got

[42:11] [Ed] something special just for you. Our exclusive Patreon page. It’s like a VIP pass to the

[42:18] [Guest] sussier side of our world. So if you’re ready for an exclusive behind the mic experience,
head over to our Patreon page now. Trust us. This is where the magic happens. See you there,

[42:31] [Unknown] patrons. So then there’s NYX lounge and the X Club, which are similar in that they are,

[42:44] [Phoebe] you know, they have a nice DJ. There is a dance floor, a bar, you know, lounge area,
and then X Club, they have the back room where you have to go change, you know,
you get out of your street clothes, change into either lingerie, naked, a towel, what not,
and then you can go into the back play areas. NYX lounge is similar. There is some
play areas amongst the crowd above them, but you can see them. That’s different than the other
ones. Otherwise, they’re kind of similar. I would say M club M4 sometimes has a dance floor,
but sometimes you show up and not whole part of the club’s closed. So like it’s hit or miss
when the dance floor is even open. So yeah, so those are the ones that I have been to. I could describe,

[43:27] [Ed] yeah. Are the dance, are the play rooms all equally nice and clean and all that?

[43:34] [Phoebe] They’re not all equally private. I mean, that’s what’s interesting is, is NYX lounge, all the beds
have these curtain things that you could just close like it’s like your princess bed, right?
You don’t have that privacy out of the way, sis. A way since there is no privacy,
unless you reserve the fourth floor private room, which is first comfort served, you know. And so

[43:54] [Unknown] otherwise, there’s no privacy or you’re in sight of people. I like that though. So most of the clubs

[44:00] [Ed] are, yeah, that makes sense. Twist isn’t private like that. It has a few cubbies, so to speak, where
you can do private things, but for the most part, it’s all out in the open, which is what we love,
where exhibitionists. So that fits the bill for us. So yeah. I have to mention one thing about

[44:18] [Phoebe] the introvert. So I met some introverted people at the club the other day, and I was just
make, I was my own comedian self, and I was talking about how I can’t wait to do a video on how
the introverts can survive at the sex club. And I hid myself behind the curtain, and I was like,
you can watch from behind the curtain. Like I was like, you don’t socialize.

[44:34] [Unknown] I’m behind the curtain. Because it’s a real struggle, right? The introvert of a real

[44:42] [Ed] start just be around all this stuff. But the thing that helped us the most was to just keep going.
And eventually the environment started to become more comfortable because the scene was comfortable.
It became predictable. The crowd became predictable. And with that level of comfort, then I could
relax and be more open and more extroverted. And the number one kind of trick or tip that we

[45:09] [Guest] throw out for new swingers or people who are maybe going for the first time to some new environment
is introduce yourself to at least one couple, at least one couple. That’s your commitment for the
night. And what it does, it forces you to break the ice and start the ball rolling. Because once
you’ve had that conversation, you loosen up a little bit, you have some fun. And then you go, oh,
there’s another cute couple. And I’ve already done this one. So I kind of feel okay. And then you

[45:39] [Phoebe] go and have more fun. I did video tours of all the sex clubs. And I actually mentioned on some of
my videos about you need to know where you can cry. If you’re a girl and you need a moment,
you need to know if there’s a spot where you could go and like have a moment. Because I’ve cried
for a few reasons, not related to necessarily anything of the club. But if you’re having an anxiety
attack, if you’re an introvert, I need to get that a minute away. I feel like that kind of stuff
that would help with on my channel to be like, these are the clubs that I recommend if you’re
introverted because there is privacy and they’re going to fight spaces or versus the other ones that
don’t. So yeah, this is a good topic. I’ll probably bring up. And when I do it, you’ll know it’s

[46:17] [Unknown] a bit of a week to you guys. Awesome. I did just start my own podcast, which is called Sex and

[46:26] [Phoebe] Swinging with Toronto Unicorn. It’s on all of the same streaming sites. I’m sure that you guys are.
And basically, I am using it as a way to walk people through the swear lifestyle from my single
woman perspective in a really, I would say hopefully, vulgarly charming way. I’m not your, you
know, polished book smart kind of girl. Like I am university educated, but I talk street smart.
And then that is how I roll. So that’s how I that’s how I educate. And I hope people check out
the podcast as well as my YouTube channel and see what it is like to actually live day to day as
a singer when I show my life of your blogs and story time videos. Some of them that have gotten

[47:03] [Ed] my channel straight. Yeah. Nice. Thanks. I just got out of you to jail today because I was

[47:09] [Guest] I was in jail again for. No, no, no, no. That’s when you know you’re doing a good job.

[47:16] [Phoebe] Yeah. And that’s what I know. I know you do it on a fucking podcast so that I can

[47:19] [Ed] effing swear. You know what I’m saying? Absolutely. But yes, the Toronto Unicorn.com has all of my

[47:24] [Phoebe] links. So I want to ask you guys some stuff now. Are you ready? Yeah. So did you start with a woman

[47:30] [Ed] between you? Did you have it? No. No, that was way too threatening. For everybody, it’s like
the thing. But for me, that was like, oh heck, no. That that was like, I am not comfortable with any
other woman being with my man. And because I wasn’t identifying as by, you know, it wasn’t it wasn’t
comfortable for me. So we just started off as, you know, same room soft swap with, you know,
it’s actually, it was more like a same room, same bed with a little, you know, touching. But before
you touched, you would have to ask, you know, can I touch your boo, you know, right? So it was a very
progressive for the first, I don’t know, four or five experiences. But then once we kind of
figured that out, it was, it was no turning back. Yeah. Yeah. And then you said it now you do
full swap stuff, right? Yes. Yeah. But we also really love soft swap. And we know a lot of
couples that will only, you know, play unless you’re a full swap couple. Oh, we don’t care. Because
there’s so many fun things you can do without penetrative sex. I mean, the menu is vast of
those experiences. And for me, it’s about the pleasure. It’s not about penetration. So I mean,
I can have a really great time without penetration. So it’s, you know, we never take that off the

[49:07] [Phoebe] table. And that’s what’s so great of the lifestyle is that you can, as long as you’re up front about
what you’re looking for, you don’t have to be on a, you don’t have to be apologetic about it. You
can just match people who are where you’re at and what you’re looking for. And that’s why I don’t
shame any of the, any of the couples for all their rules, even though the sass in my voice when you hear
my podcast talks about, especially episodes six and it gets called how to be safe emotionally and
physically in the lifestyle. How can you, how’s how can you possibly play your husband or
fuck someone out? Like I talk about it. How could you do it? And so what I, one of the phrases I
said is, you know, people come in with all these rules, right? About no kissing, you know,
no penetration, whatever. And I, and I like to say it as a single woman, I said, well, you know,
I would never want to join a couple who had a no kissing role, for example, because to me,
that just screams of insecurity. And I don’t want to feel like I’m joining an ounce of insecurity.
I want to be cherished, invited. I want a red carpet rolled straight to the dick. You know,
I want to feel completely cherished as a guest and not, oh, it, you know, that work, this whole
no, but that whole, no, fuck off. It’s all or nothing. That’s how I feel. You know, I get a couple
of it, I’m apologetic about it, but it’s because I’ve learned also that as a, as a single woman
unicorn, I’ve had, I’ve had in the middle of sex, somebody declined to kiss me when I went to kiss
them because they decided that they didn’t like that and didn’t want to. And again, everyone learned
where their boundary is and that’s fine. But learning that, taking that away from me, it was like,
yeah, I don’t want to feel like I’m only, you know, wanted for one whole. Right. Right. You know,

[50:56] [Unknown] so I guess for me, that wasn’t a match, but yeah. Yeah, it’s, I think the most challenging part

[51:04] [Ed] is that when you’re, when you’re still experiencing things and trying to navigate through and figure
out, do I like this? Do I like like that? You know, and the rules change and the boundaries change.
So can change so quickly. It almost felt like we’re constantly updating our profile. And at one

[51:23] [Unknown] point, you know, even though we advocate for making your profile as current as it can be,

[51:31] [Ed] should change so, so fast, you know, and so people will read the profile and they’re like, well,
I thought you were into this. Well, you know, that that change last week with the last experience.
And so now I’m into this, right? So like, that’s where the communication comes in. And almost
honestly meeting people face to face and having that communication, what do you like? That, that’s,
you know, that’s your elevator speech right there. Don’t rely on the profile. This is what I want.
This is what I’m into. And you go from there because they’re right there, right? And you have
that communication right there. We’ve had a few bait and switch situations where, you know, we
think they’re all on board. And then all of a sudden we get back to the room with a woman’s like,
oh, no, I just want to watch. And you’re like, wait, what? So poor Ed is now lounging on the bed,

[52:21] [Unknown] watching me. And we’re like, wait, we didn’t sign up for that scenario. So not that I didn’t enjoy
watching her, but it would have been nice to have had a little more interaction. Yeah. Yeah.

[52:38] [Ed] So as a result, you know, once we discovered that that that nothing was going to be going on with

[52:42] [Unknown] with the other woman and Ed, I’m like, oh, heck, no, I’m like, okay, I’m cutting this short. Like

[52:48] [Ed] because I didn’t want Ed to feel left out, right? And I’m like, wait a minute. What happened
with this transaction here? So we’re like, okay, I’m done.

[53:01] [Phoebe] I’ve seen some bisexual women only, it’s only happened once in front of me, but basically she
went for a couple solely to have the woman without telling the man that.
Just wouldn’t have knowledge him in the freezer. I just was like, you know, and I just felt
terrible for the guy. Like, I was like, oh my god, like, I feel bad for the, from the
uniforms I took for somebody to selfishly do that. That’s not fair. Like, he just wanted to
push it out badly, I guess, but that’s still, that’s not ethical. Like, you know what I mean? That’s
not consensual. When you’re coming in, see what I want to join the two of you, but you know,
you get the fuck you, you sit over there, your dick’s not welcome. I would not like that either.

[53:41] [Unknown] Yeah. And I’m reading about that a lot on the Facebook groups that tends to happen a lot.
And it’s, it’s really frustrating. And I guess, I mean, we did encounter some of that too.

[53:58] [Ed] What’s been the most challenging hands down is meeting people online. You go for a coffee
day at a drink date or whatever kind of dinner date thing. And it just never plays out. You
spend all that time getting ready, you get all worked up, you think the communication was great,
you get there and it’s won’t want, or they change their mind, or there’s a bait and switch,
or whatever. And I’m like, you know what? Screw that. I’m done with that. I’m just going to
meet the person in real life. I can read their nonverbal communication. I can flirt with them.
I can give them the kissing test. And if they pass, then we’re on. But if not, you know what?

[54:32] [Unknown] There’s 60 other people here at this party that, you know, are potentially available. And so

[54:38] [Ed] then you just move to the next one. And then you’re like, you know, your night’s not ruined. And

[54:43] [Unknown] hopefully you can have the experience that maybe you are we’re looking for.

[54:50] [Phoebe] That’s what I love about clubs is as everyone who’s online with a profile who is within
the vicinity of a club, I’m like, get out, get offline, go to the fucking club because those
people also are there to have sex with people on the same night. They have a babysitter maybe,
they have, you know, they’ve shown up to the same physical location, wanting the same thing.
You will never statistically have better odds than that. And so that’s why even if you don’t like
the couple that you meet, well, then you go to the bar and you talk to a different couple.
You have statistically the most incredible odds at sex clubs, even just to network with other
people. And one of the other places that I network that I hope that you guys even, you know,
hopefully I see you on there one day, I should also mention I have been, I have never been paid
by Oasis to promote them or anything along those lines. I just love it. It just changed my life
and I give them a lot of free promotion. But basically they have a virtual platform that was
created out of the pandemic and lived on. And so when they closed the sex clubs in Canada,
we had this virtual space where people were, we were all really reluctant at first. We show up,
we turn on our webcams. And it was literally a bunch of swingers in their bedrooms and you can
give a fuck. And we were like virtual swinging. There’s virtual swinging. And at first we’re like,
who the fuck would do virtual swinging? But when you don’t have the other alternative in front of you,
it’s better than nothing than no swinging. And so there’s something about even just networking
with people in the lifestyle going on camera. If you’re an exhibitionist, you know, even just
jerking your camera off in front of an audience, some people really enjoy that. Now there’s a place
where you can do that and you don’t get blocked, you know, you don’t have to do that on Instagram feed
every night or my DM. So it’s one of those things. The virtual swinger space has been a great

[56:34] [Unknown] a place of community and connection for me too. And you guys don’t have a club near you. That’s

[56:40] [Phoebe] like sex clubs, but hopefully you guys can at least find some virtual spaces to connect because

[56:44] [Unknown] seeing someone, seeing somebody on camera, like even a discord chat or something. If they’re

[56:48] [Phoebe] in your area, then you already have a head start. Who cares if the profile says if you’ve got
chemistry or bit, you know, in a way you’re like, okay, as long as you’ve got the charm of the

[56:56] [Ed] camera, there’s less work to do in person, you know. Yeah, yeah, that sounds fun. Yeah, maybe we’ll

[57:04] [Unknown] give that a try. And then I have some questions for you guys as a couple. You guys have been together

[57:11] [Ed] 10 years, but swinging for roughly three, so podcasting for three, swinging for gosh, nine years,

[57:19] [Phoebe] nine or 10. Oh, I got that backwards. Okay. So I would love to know how you keep it safe, how
you feel safe, being a swinger and sharing and evolving because you said you went from soft swap
to who pox as long as I got my popcorn, I can watch. It’s fine. That’s evolution. So I want to know
how do you feel safe and how do you continue to feel safe? And also any tips that you have that
maybe you learned the hard way or whatnot that you could pass along for a new couple that might

[57:47] [Ed] help them be successful. Safe, you know, safety. Our community is really great. I’ve never
not felt safe. I’ve felt nervous in the beginning because I didn’t know what to expect and I thought
people are going to attack me, but no one ever did. There’s always security at every house party
that we go to and any kind of club that’s, you know, or we didn’t really have a club. There was
kind of a sort of a club here on the down low, but they always had security too. But I guess
the bottom line is everyone that runs a house party here always has someone at the front door,
and if the party’s really big, they have someone roaming around the party too to make sure everyone’s

[58:33] [Unknown] safe. They take care of, make sure they take care of people that have, you know, been drinking too
much. They don’t let them drive home drunk. You know, it’s nice. It’s great. It’s just kind of a
known fact that you just have someone watching over the crowd so that everyone, you know,

[58:56] [Ed] feels safe and everyone kind of behaves, right? Yeah. And can I drill in and ask specifically,

[59:06] [Phoebe] how do you feel safe as an introvert? How do you feel safe in your relationship to expand
and be a winner? Yeah, I think a lot of, yeah, I think a lot of the safety that we kind of feel

[59:20] [Guest] with each other in terms of being comfortable playing, exposing our relationship to new experiences

[59:28] [Unknown] and potentially things that can risk the marriage, right? Like I think that’s a lot of people’s

[59:34] [Guest] concern is and one of our concerns very early on, which was, is this going to break us? Like,
is this going to tear us apart? Are we going to lose that special thing that we had by doing this?

[59:47] [Unknown] And we thought about it. And most of kind of the guardrails that we put up with our relationship

[59:56] [Guest] were being comfortable talking about anything, no matter how you’re feeling or what you’re going
through, you have to be able to bring it up and you have to be comfortable with talking about it.
So creating, in a sense, a safe space for both people to express their feelings, express their,
their lusts and have the other person be open to hearing about it. And it worked really well
for us. We used to sit in the backyard. We’d have a little bonfire going in our little fire pit,
sit there with a little glass of whiskey and and have long conversations about how we were feeling

[01:00:35] [Unknown] and how that last event went and how she felt about some interaction that we’d had with a couple.

[01:00:43] [Guest] And we worked through so many of our feelings and our anxieties, insecurities. Yeah. I mean,

[01:00:53] [Ed] I would always ask after a event. So was there pussy tight? Like, we did it feel different. He’s like,
I didn’t really notice. He’s like, you know, it wasn’t any tight or loose than, you know, normal.
He’s like, it was just different. But I always asked him that because that was my insecurity,
right? Someone’s going to feel better, right? Like, I’m going to be less than, you know? And then
there were certain types of people that I was like, no, just based on like just the way they looked.
I’m like, she’s out. And for some, and I didn’t necessarily have a reason. It was just like the way

[01:01:35] [Guest] she looked. I’m like, no, or the way she approached us or she’s the way she approached. So if a woman

[01:01:40] [Ed] was very aggressive and very flirty and she didn’t engage with me first, I was very threatened by
that. And I didn’t like that. And so I learned from that. And I thought, oh gosh, you know, I don’t want

[01:01:52] [Unknown] to make sure I don’t make somebody else feel like that. So trial and error. And then, you know,

[01:01:59] [Ed] it always made me feel very comfortable and safe by his just acceptance and constantly being there.

[01:02:09] [Unknown] And I would say to him time and time again, I know what I’m saying isn’t going to make any sense.

[01:02:16] [Ed] Logically, I know, you know, XYZ, but my emotional side is going ABC, right? I know this doesn’t sound
like, and I would have this just this these weird disconnects of, I had a really great time. But now

[01:02:35] [Unknown] the next day my brain’s going, oh, you couldn’t have had a great time because that doesn’t fit with

[01:02:40] [Ed] your upbringing. And that doesn’t fit with this social setting. And that doesn’t fit with this rule
brick and all this stuff. And so then the next day I’d have all this fall out from all the programming
that, you know, I just grew up with. And then so I had to go through and just remember like,
yeah, but last night you were fine. You had a great time, right? Yeah. Okay. So then now you’re just
mentally fucking yourself with all the rules and BS that you grew up with. So there was a bit of
that to just try and shed the deep, you know, deeper programming of things that, you know,
it’s not okay to feel great. It’s not okay to prance around naked in front of people. It’s not
right? All that baloney, right? It’s just it was insidious. And then the other thing that really made
me mad was like, I had been in therapy for years like in my 20s. My whole 20s was just therapy
after therapy after therapy because my life was effed. And I didn’t really start living my life
to last 30s. And I was like, good, I’m good. I’m good. I’m like, I graduated. I’m like, I finally
got life figured out. And then we start swinging. And I’m like, what’s this shit coming back up
again? I’m like, so again, but you know what? I like the challenge because I like growth. I don’t
like being confined. I don’t like having judgments. I don’t like having, you know, I’m always
constantly trying to figure out, why did why did that trigger me? Hmm, maybe I should look at that
because otherwise it just bugs me. It sits sits and stews and I don’t like that. Yeah. And like

[01:04:23] [Guest] one of the pieces of advice that I’ll give to new swingers is you don’t know what you’re going
to enjoy. You don’t know what’s going to scare you until you actually try it. But you have to be
comfortable pulling the rip cord and saying, time out, I need to back out of this. We need to talk
about this and do it gracefully, right? Just go, I need to get a glass of water honey. Will you come
with me? And then go offline, go talk about it, figure it out on on your own. But it’s okay to
to have an oh shit moment and have to talk about it. Like that’s okay. And it’s okay to say,
you know, I wasn’t comfortable with this or I was actually really comfortable with this and I
wanted to keep going further. But we had this rule, you know, I wasn’t supposed to kiss the unicorn.
But I really want to kiss the unicorn.

[01:05:15] [Phoebe] Well, what happens to someone who gets and then you know, the kids have oh shit, what happens then,
right? Right. Right. So there’s there’s sensitivities here too. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it’s

[01:05:27] [Guest] important to respect each other’s rules and boundaries, right? And not to blow past them. We were
just reading about a couple where the husband was constantly doing things that he wasn’t supposed
to. And of course, the general advice from most of the people in the forum were time to

[01:05:47] [Unknown] get out. Like that’s not okay. And people make mistakes in the heat of the moment. You know,

[01:05:55] [Guest] you’re turned on. Your brain’s not fully working. I mean, the other brain’s working full time.
So like give each other a break sometimes somebody’s going to step out and do something that’s not
okay. And in the moment, it was a it was a mistake. But give them the benefit of the doubt.
Come back together, talk about it, figure it out and go, yeah, I know, I got excited. And
that’s okay. That’s okay. But talk about it. Yeah.

[01:06:27] [Phoebe] It’s true. And I have one example of I used to be partnered when I would have swinger experiences.
So some of these experiences, I had one where it was a couple, it was a couple swap, but it was
foursome. It was a foursome. And so I had one guy behind me having sex with me and then the
boyfriend girlfriend in front of me. And we all did this three-way kiss while this other guy was
fucking me. And then he told me later that he felt left out. I was like, you were in me.
And you felt left out, right? But he did. And not so that he told me that because I would have
never known, right? And so in the future, would I do a three-way kiss without a no, probably not.
I would try to make it more inclusive. But it was great of him to tell me that because how can
I be a good partner if I don’t even know what I’m doing that could be causing any sort of trigger

[01:07:19] [Guest] or issue, you know? Right. Yeah. And I think that’s a big risk, especially for couples that have
been together for a long time. The assumption that your partner knows you. Well, they knew you going
to the ballgame, going to a vacation, going to a nightclub as a couple. But they don’t know you
in the context of swinging with other people and having sex with other people. That is a new
context. And you’re going to have to figure out a whole bunch of stuff all over again.

[01:07:54] [Phoebe] But I just want to say that this lifestyle for me, like you said at the beginning,

[01:07:58] [Guest] I’ll be be about it. It’s not just about the sex. One of the biggest takeaways for me as a woman

[01:08:03] [Phoebe] is the is the bond that I can have with women who still fuck the thing that is me. Unheard of

[01:08:09] [Unknown] in vanilla world. If I, if I sat on that dick one time, that guy was off limits to my friends.

[01:08:16] [Phoebe] Yep. Right. And now I’m like, you go to time his dick. You know, it’s just so different.
And it’s true. I meet it when I let my friends know that this guy is braiding that I would,
you know, he’s a great fuck because I’ve seen my friends fuck my friends, my other friends.
And it is absolutely fantastic. So there’s one guy I’m actually sleeping with right now. And the
reason I’m sleeping with him is because I watched him fuck my friend. And he did such a fantastic job
that I got interested. And I, and then I, you know, got to know his personality. And then I
wanted to turn. And so my friend and I talked about it because I actually was like, you know,
I just want to do a girl code check in making sure you’re not upset. It’s not even his wife.
His wife, yeah, the wife. But she’s like, no, no, it’s all good because even though I knew it was
all good, there’s still something about being like, I’m going to sit on that dick next.
All right, you know that, right? You know, because then she told me, oh, well, you know, don’t,
don’t be afraid to ask for oral. He’s good at it. And I was like, oh, okay, thanks. Think about that.
Think about two women in Vinella world having that conversation over a guy that one of them had
sex with. Like, it would never happen. Not in a, not in a world that I lived in. And so that is
the best part in this barely style. Outside of all of the sex is the bond that we can have women,
especially without that competition. And when sex finally doesn’t become the thing that separates us
from other women, we can finally coexist in a way that I think men always have in a way.
And I think that it’s kind of, it’s kind of nice that we cannot be so uptight about sex as much.

[01:09:45] [Ed] Oh my gosh. Yeah, I had completely forgotten about that or didn’t ever really look at it like that.

[01:09:52] [Unknown] And you’re absolutely right. I have that same friendship with somebody and she’s always

[01:09:58] [Ed] curating new guys. And she’s sending me their, you know, their photos. And she’s like,
look who I’m bringing to the party tonight. I’m like, okay, I’ll let you have first. I always know I
get him second. And so it’s great. She’s fine. These guys. I’m like, oh, look who she’s bringing
to the party tonight. So yeah, it’s a lot of fun. And you know, it’s, yeah, there’s none of that

[01:10:23] [Unknown] weirdness there. I just love that. I love it. So any last words before we end off the chat?
Yeah, we are going to promote our Costa Rica vacation, which we would love everyone to come to.

[01:10:42] [Ed] It’s in Haco, Costa Rica. It is actually, the country’s actually safer than the United States. So
if you have any inhibitions about going to a different country, don’t, the people are wonderful.
They have a phrase called puravita. It’s kind of like in Australia, like no worries or in Hawaii,
what do they say? Well, I don’t know how, but there’s a phrase for just like, whatever, whatever,
right? And so this resort is a small resort. It’s, it’s 20 rooms. And so it’s nice and intimate.
You can be naked everywhere at the resort 100% of the time. If you go to, to eat, you know,
obviously, you just put a towel down and you can be naked at the pool. You can be
fucking at the pool. There’ll be pool parties. There are actually two excursions that we’re going on
that are already paid for as part of your price. And then you have free days that you can go do

[01:11:39] [Unknown] excursions as well. If you, you know, want to hang out with pool, you do if you want to go zipline
or ATV, whatever, you can go do that also. And then if we transportation to them from the airport,
it’s really an amazing price. And of course, you know, all inclusive food, alcohol, all that

[01:11:55] [Ed] stuff. And then the town, the small beach town Haco is right near the resort. And you just walk
and go hang out in town if you want. Have some great food. It’s safe. So we’re super excited to be
hosting it for people that want to come join us. And we’ll be doing some podcasting there and
some classes. Oh, yeah. And there’s classes because there’s a, you know, a room, obviously,
a sex room. And so we’ll have a class on the Sibian. We’ll have a flogging class, we’ll have
squirting class. I can’t remember what the other classes are. And then of course, nightly themes too.

[01:12:31] [Guest] So we’ll have pole dance lessons, poker night, poker nights. And what’s the other one? We learn how
to salsa. Tequila and rum tasting. Tequila rum tasting. And we got a lot of stuff. There’s a lot

[01:12:43] [Ed] going on. So it’s all designed to bring everybody together to, you know, so that you, you’re spending
time together and you’re building those relationships in that sense of community. So we’re super excited.

[01:12:56] [Guest] Right. On top of that, we have our YouTube channel. We have a website. So swingyouruniversity.com.
You can get access to all of our content. And we have a links page as well. So if you’re
interested in all of our socials, it’s swinglinx.club. And all of our fun stuff is there, including some
of our spicy content, which we don’t put up on the rest of the social media stuff because we’ll get

[01:13:25] [Unknown] banned and shut down. And that’s not okay. Right. Yeah. So we, um, can I ask you? Sorry, we didn’t

[01:13:34] [Ed] actually mention when the Costa Rica trip is. When are you sure we tell people when? That’s right.

[01:13:39] [Unknown] The Costa Rica trip is this June, June 2023. Awesome. And you guys will be there. So if they show,

[01:13:47] [Guest] if people show up, they’ll be able to meet you. Yes. Absolutely. In addition to being in attendance,
we’re hoping to do some podcasty things there too in broadcast. I don’t remember how good the
Wi-Fi was there. We had some problems on the ship this last time, but the goal is to broadcast

[01:14:06] [Unknown] while we’re there. Yeah. That’s so cool. Thank you guys. This is a thrill to be able to hang out with

[01:14:13] [Phoebe] you virtually and share stories and tips. We both contribute differently in the same space. And
that’s just like reminiscent of this thing a world, right? Yes. So we all have different
choices and different things to contribute. So thank you for doing this full spot with me tonight.
This is a different kind of full spot, but it is sick. I love it. Well, thank you very much for

[01:14:32] [Guest] having us on. We’ve enjoyed being on your show and having you on our show as well. Thank you so
much. That’s fun. Oh, one last thing before you go. If this episode helped you in any way,
the single best thing you can do to support the show is leaving a rating and review.
It takes 60 seconds and helps new people find us when they’re searching for relationship education.
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