Does your swinger card expire?

[00:00] [Guest] Picture this, you’re at an event that used to light you up, same faces, same music, same vibe,
but something feels off. The energy that once fueled you now feels distant. Your tribe is
drifted, the thrill has faded and suddenly you’re questioning if you even belong here anymore.
Maybe it’s nostalgic keeping you stuck, maybe it’s the fear of missing out.

[00:27] [Unknown] But what if this shift isn’t a loss? It’s an invitation to something new.

[00:37] [Guest] Welcome to Swinger University, I’m Ed. And on PB.
Today we’re talking to KEL from expansive connection and we’re breaking down what it means
when your desires evolve and how to embrace change without guilt.
It’s time to let go of self-judgment, rewrite your story and step boldly into the next chapter

[01:00] [Ed] of you. Let’s dive in. KEL is a certified adult chair coach, certified relational therapy
coach, and certified NNA. Oh, I knew I was going to mess that up, and then NNA, NNA, NNA, NNA.
Graham. Eminem, I’m in. KEL is going to fix that in a second here specializing in relationships
using the adult chair model. She guides individuals in uncovering their true selves, cultivating self
love and deepening their ability to listen to their inner voice. If you’re
feeling stuck on a sense that life holds more for you, Kel will help you explore
your path to fulfilling one of a kind life and turn it into reality. She also
works with singles and couples seeking lasting transformation in how they
connect and communicate with Kel’s guidance. You’ll rediscover self-love and
reignite the spark in your relationships. So welcome, Kel. Thank you. And please

[01:59] [Phoebe] correct my flub. Any a gram, any a gram is the word you were trying to say
the little fumble there. Yes. So I am thrilled to be here and yes, happy to talk
about all of the things that Ed so eloquently led us up to, but also and
certified in the adult chair, which is a podcast by Vishal Shafant from the
Vishal Shafant show. I think it’s what it’s called now, but it is a model for

[02:26] [Unknown] interparts work, which is very useful in therapeutic coaching, which is what

[02:31] [Phoebe] we do, expansive connection. Also, in any gram certified in the any a gram is
just a tool to better understand personality. So there’s lots of great
personality tools out there. The any a gram is just my favorite personally
because it really did digs indeed on why we do what we do and helps us to
understand ourselves. And also the people that we love and live with. So it is
very useful. And yes, I’m happy to be here to represent on the team and

[02:58] [Ed] experience the connection with you guys today. Yay, welcome. We’re so we’re so
happy that you’re here with us today because the the journey of opening up your
relationship and and sharing your partner with with somebody else in in any
form is is challenging. It really is a a a very personal growth process. Yeah,
definitely. And resources are really important when we first started. The resources
weren’t weren’t there. All we had were podcasts really to listen to and everyone’s
experiences different, which was great. It gave us a lot of a lot of things to
sample from. But sometimes you just can’t find what’s unique to you. And that’s
why your guys’ service is so great and wonderful because you listen to people
all day all along, you know, all day long all week long. And you’ve got this
wealth of information from a bunch of couples and singles experiences as
they’re going through this journey. So we’re super excited that you’re here.

[04:11] [Phoebe] Absolutely. And it’s interesting. We had a connection or four coaches, but we
all also were walking our own road on the UNM. So we do it differently. Each of us
do it a little differently. Of course, since there’s so many different ways to do
that, but we all are practicing that in our own lives and our relationships. So I
think it does to feed you your point, give people perspective. It gives us a way
to help people from being on the same side of the street with them. And maybe not
just being compassionate to the side of the street they’re on, but actually
having, you know, swept the sidewalks and mode the grass and clean the gutters on
that side of the road with them. So yes, it’s very happy to work with with people.
And we really focus on relationships. Because like you said, that’s the hard
part of opening up is, how do I share this person and how do we manage our
relationship as it changes and grows and evolves and devolves and all the

[04:56] [Unknown] things that happen when we try to become different people? Yeah, exactly. Speaking

[05:02] [Guest] of evolving. So we’ve kind of titled this episode as an aging out. And that’s
kind of our turn of phrase on the whole thing, but it’s less about age and more
about maybe habitualization and like just doing the same thing over and over
again and it kind of loses its luster, right? It’s lost that new swing or smell,
as we say. So let’s talk about that a little bit. Yeah, we ourselves are 11, 12

[05:43] [Ed] years in now and we’re experiencing that, that type of lack of lackluster. And
and some of it has to do with our tribe disappearing and trying to find a new

[06:00] [Unknown] tribe or tribe is fractured because things change. Or some people, it’s some of

[06:08] [Ed] our friends they say that they’re just too old and I don’t agree with that. I
think, I mean, I understand that that’s a perspective, but I know a lot of
people continue that as they age. And then we’re also wanted to kind of get
your feedback on, you know, how do you start again or make it fresh or how do
you renegotiate all of that? So that’s kind of where we’re starting right

[06:38] [Phoebe] there. Yeah, yeah. Well, I think it’s interesting because I agree with you,
Phoebe, I don’t think that there is an age limit to this. You know, it’s not the
opposite of getting carted. When you’re going into a bar, I’ll excite it with
your fake ID. And then there’s some opposite end of that. The Swinger
Hattles where it’s like, Oh, sorry, sorry, your ID says you’re a little too old to
get into this event. And I’ve all seen couples that are, you know, into their
70s. Yeah, maybe even older, you know, never want to go up and ask them unless

[07:07] [Unknown] they offered it, but that are still enjoying resorts and parties and friends

[07:11] [Phoebe] and some of the the joy and the fun and the levity that E&M has to offer. So
yeah, it doesn’t feel like it’s just some arbitrary number on the birthday cake.

[07:25] [Unknown] But I think there is something to this idea that the same thing, sometimes

[07:29] [Phoebe] that lights us up, getting into something new. So we’ll talk a little brain
science and geek out a little bit here is also what sometimes fades away and
makes us not so motivated to do things. So, you know, the brain’s an interesting

[07:42] [Unknown] thing that runs our whole lives. And most of us that have been in in and long

[07:49] [Phoebe] enough have heard of NRE, you know, this new relationship energy that the
brain gets really, really hopped up on all the dopamine and serotonin that
meeting someone new kind of lights up in our bodies. And that actually
happens with any kind of novelty. The brain does the same thing about a fun
activity. You know, if you’ve ever gotten into a new hobby, a new sport, a new
book series, your brain does the same thing. It gets really, really excited. And
suddenly, all you want to do is like, cool, all you want to do is bake sourdough.
All you want to do is finish the next chapter in this book series. So the
brain loves new. It loves the idea of brand new stimuli and getting it all
worked up and sending all of these hormones for a body that say, this is new,

[08:36] [Unknown] this is fine, this is exciting. And that happens in all kinds of things with

[08:40] [Phoebe] people, of course, the kind of classic NRE, but also with activities. And so
for a lot of people, when they get into nomenogamy, they find themselves in
that space of loving the novelty of something they have never done with
people they never know existed in places they didn’t know or even possible.
And so that becomes very exciting and very, a very big driver of why they’re
showing up to do it. Well, what happens when, say, for you guys this example,
a decade goes by, well, the brain can’t create that kind of energy for that
long of a period of time around a new thing, because guess what? Suddenly,

[09:22] [Unknown] it’s not so new. Five years, 10 years in. This isn’t new. This is familiar.

[09:28] [Phoebe] And so all of the things that really get people going sometimes fade away
and without something else to kind of backfill all of those brain
chemicals. When you settle into familiar, it can be easy to kind of not be
able to kind of generate the enthusiasm, the energy to keep going into
something, especially when they’re struggles in terms of people squitting
going and you’re losing friends. And so suddenly there’s some sorrow there.

[09:55] [Guest] That’s a day held a climb. Yeah. Yeah. We know when we first got in,

[10:02] [Unknown] pretty much every event was like amazing. It was like a level, you know,
12 experience because it was new. It’s something that we’d never experienced

[10:13] [Guest] before. It’s like having that new food for the first time or, you know,
all that new hobby that you have that you just invest everything into.

[10:23] [Unknown] And we, we kind of rekindled that as we went because it was a new location

[10:31] [Guest] or it was a new group of people. And I think a lot of our kind of lack of

[10:38] [Unknown] NRE, if you will, is that we keep seeing the same people at these events

[10:45] [Guest] and it’s become kind of like the typical crowd. And, you know, we’ve either
we’ve either run our course with that particular group of people.
Or we just didn’t have an attraction to them or, you know, it’s just like,
yeah, it’s going to be the same thing. And I’m just not excited to even show up
at the party, let alone engage and move forward with that.
So what are some things that we can do to help with that?

[11:12] [Phoebe] Sure. Well, I think really it’s finding everything in life that we’re
trying to make ourselves do. We’re trying to keep ourselves doing
or just interested in doing. We really do better as humans if we create a sense
of why. You know, this question of why we do something, why is really a motivator?
So when we start anything that we want to do for a long time, we really can

[11:40] [Unknown] come up with, usually, unless it’s, you know, we just drank too much and there

[11:45] [Phoebe] we were. And here we are. And what we do, you know, those are, of course,
usually not as quite as thought out ideas and those content. So that’s
right out to be a lot of fun. But they’re not sustaining sustaining things for
our systems, whether that system be ourselves or a relationship, usually
mean a good motivation and the motivation of course is going to be the why.
So the why for you guys that existed 10 years ago, most likely does not
still exist. And so if you’re trying to chase the same why and binding it empty,
you’re just not putting enough gas in the tank to go. So a lot of times we’ll
talk to couples and say, you know, it’s sometimes it’s a good idea to sit
back down, you know, pat and paper, pen and pencil and say, why would we put
the time and the energy and the emotion and the money and any other resource
that you guys are putting into this activity now? And that can become a real
start from scratch, mind, mat, brainstorming thing because maybe some of
the people that would have been in part of your wife, five years ago, like
Phoebe said, have no longer present. They’re not even here anymore. Well,
then that’s not a why. So it’s digging into and I always challenge people in any
couple, there are three ways. There’s my why, there’s your why, and there’s
more why. There’s the us why. And so I’ve challenged people before as a
homework assignment after coaching to go home and literally make a column,
me, you, us. And then what is good for me still here? What would be a
challenge? What would be a push? What would be a motivator that could create

[13:24] [Unknown] enough energy, enough momentum to get us to go to places? Maybe we need to go

[13:29] [Phoebe] to different places. Maybe the new motivation is we’d like to travel and do
this. And so we’re not seeing the same people that we love in our neighborhood
and our town. But instead, we’re going to take this on the road. And we’re
going to start to go to events that are in different cities and different
towns, maybe even different countries. Maybe the motivator is we’d like to
be, you know, to some of Phoebe’s friends, we’re way we’re at the are the older
people in the crowd now, or at least in that segment of the population.
Then maybe we want to try to invest in some younger people that we see coming
on the scene with some in some insight. We want to mentor people now.
We want to take people who are new and and befriend them and be a way to kind
of pass on the lessons we’ve learned and help their road be maybe a little
easier or just different than ours was. So there’s all kinds of wise, but
without a clear one, we will really suffer from a lack of initiative, a lack of
enthusiasm and a lack of energy to go into these things that we want to enjoy.

[14:23] [Unknown] They could enjoy again. All right. We need your help so that your

[14:32] [Guest] community, the very one you love and have so much fun with can also find our
show. Here’s a really easy way to do that. If you’re listening on Apple
podcasts or Spotify, hit that follow button and leave us a rating. If you’re
watching on YouTube, subscribe and turn on notifications. We can’t emphasize
enough how much this helps the Swinger community and it truly is up to you to
make that happen. It makes a massive difference in whether new listeners can

[15:04] [Unknown] even find us. And here’s the thing. When someone searches Swinger podcast, the

[15:10] [Guest] algorithm doesn’t care how good our content is or how long we’ve been around.

[15:15] [Unknown] It only cares about ratings and reviews. We’d appreciate it. And your community
will really appreciate it. Thanks for listening. Yeah, we’ve we’ve we’ve done a

[15:34] [Ed] little bit of that that Y analysis and we when we were under a lot of stress
and we needed to to to regroup. We shut down the podcast for about who’s
supposed to be three months, but I said I need another month. And it it helped
us regroup and figure out that why. Why are we doing this? And this was last
year. And the reason we came up with is the community. We couldn’t just give
it up. I mean, it was so integral in our in our lives that we had to we had to
keep networked and we started finding ways to do that and keep giving back. The
podcast is one of the ways that we keep getting back when Ed and I sit down and
talk together in front of the microphone. That’s one of my these are some of my
most favorite moments because we’re very we’re connecting in a very real way.
And I think a lot of it is is that very purposeful conversation. It’s the eye to

[16:42] [Guest] eye contact conversation. Right. Right. And we’re engaging mentally and

[16:46] [Ed] sharing information. We’re having fun doing it. And I I didn’t want to stop

[16:52] [Unknown] doing that. And he didn’t want to stop doing that. And we did we we realized

[16:58] [Ed] we do like to travel. And we’re going to have to start traveling now because our
community is somewhat procured and different here. And so we we are starting to
do that as well. But the the focus is shifted too. It’s not it’s not about the
sex anymore. The that you know, somebody new and different, right? It’s not
about that anymore. It’s it’s about the people really because you can just be
so authentic with everyone. You could talk about anything. And people are just
very open and nonjudgmental. And that’s what’s lovely. It’s it’s very it’s like

[17:40] [Unknown] being at a nudist resort, right? You just take off your clothes and you walk
around. You’re like judgment. You just feel free. And and it’s funny. I’m using

[17:50] [Ed] that analogy because I don’t like nudist. I mean, I’m not actually really feel
comfortable there. I can go, but it’s not really my thing. But it’s still kind of

[17:58] [Guest] that. Yes, that shedding your your preconceptions and your your baggage, right?
You’re just kind of dropping all of that and just being there in the moment
with people and just just enjoying it. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. I think that

[18:17] [Phoebe] that’s a beautiful analogy to anybody who’s ever been to the clothing
options were will instantly understand that nonjudgment. It’s just like, oh,
it’s just like another Thursday here. I mean, you know, it’s very relaxed and
very, but also, I think something metaphorical happens when people take off
their clothes, they tend to take down their guard and a lot of other ways too.

[18:35] [Unknown] And so you get these really rich and really deep conversations with people

[18:39] [Phoebe] about things that really, really matter, you know, versus surface level
talk that happens a lot with people that we know. And so there is something to
be desired about again, these not just the conversations you and Ed are having,
which are beautiful and you let us sometimes listen in on, but that you could
have those kind of conversations with other people too is really a wonderful
lie to continue to create community in this open environment. What happens

[19:05] [Unknown] with couples when they their needs change, maybe the one of their partners wants

[19:13] [Ed] to continue the lifestyle, they want to continue having new sexual experiences.
Or maybe they decide, you know, it’s not, it’s not sex, it’s more,
they want to experience maybe the BDSM side of those types of sensory
experiences. And their partner could either care less or they want some,
you know, we’re talking, you know, different, right? Sure things are starting

[19:41] [Guest] to transition. Right. The wise are have, have, you know,
deviated, if you will, you know, they’ve kind of split a little bit.

[19:49] [Phoebe] Yeah, for sure. And first, let me say that also it’s always a valid
like just saying, you know, this isn’t for me, just like any other hobby,
just like any other interest is never something to be, you know, to chase
to the ends of the earth, you have to find a why. Sometimes there’s just not a
why for people. Sometimes people had a why and again, maybe a decade has gone
by and they just can’t generate another one or their life has changed.
And now maybe they have grandchildren or maybe they have different financial
responsibilities or maybe their health is different. And so I always want to
say that, you know, to say, this no longer meets my needs and no longer
up is just something that I have a capacity for is extremely valid and one of
many options for people to say. So to your point, what if one part of a
partnership, one part of a couple says, you know, I just don’t think this is

[20:40] [Unknown] for me. I don’t think I can add this in with all the other things that our

[20:43] [Phoebe] life has now includes. And the other person says, well, I want to.
Well, I think what happens is what happens about a lot of things for couples.
And we just do it. So naturally, we don’t really think about it this way.
But that is we we entered into negotiation. So being in a couple any for more
than five minutes means that we have shown up to the table to negotiate with
another human being how to get our wants, how to get our needs, how to get
the things that we just desire done. And then also how to have this other

[21:14] [Unknown] person do that same thing. And so couples, that’s a lot of time where couples

[21:17] [Phoebe] will come to see a coach is to help in that negotiation process.
Maybe they feel like, you know, and it’s really interesting. I really take
this coaching for sort of a business background and really treat it that way
and say, okay, well, here’s all of the options for your negotiation. You know,
how how willing are you to accommodate your partner? You know,
accommodations, just one of the places on negotiation. How much compromise can
we find here? Can you move a little left and they move a little right? Is there
a new way to see this? That’s not more nothing, but somewhere in the middle.
And sometimes couples can use negotiation to create consensus, which is
different than compromise. It’s sort of like creating a brand new idea, not
I lose a little you lose a little, but really this sort of start fresh with what
do you need and what do you want? Why do you want that? And how could that be
fine with me and not bother me at all if you wanted to go and explore BDS and
play with someone? And I was not involved. Well, what I need to feel safe
about that? What would I need for there to not be any resentment about you taking
the time and the energy away from us? And that conversation is really kind of
building or creating a new thing, which becomes this consensus decision that
we negotiate out. So couples can do that in a lot of different ways. And
sometimes they just aren’t used to the skills or they just haven’t done it
around something. Maybe that’s as tender or as sensitive as sexual ideas and
sexual openness.

[22:47] [Guest] Yeah, we’ve definitely come to kind of a consensus in terms of what we wanted
to do. And we’d we talked about traveling more and wanting to see parts of
the world. There’s so many things to see, right? Our bucket list just
it doesn’t get any shorter. We keep adding locations that we want to go see
and things that we want to go experience. And we’re starting to think that
maybe this travel aspect, you know, traveling to Europe. And we make it maybe
a blended vacation. So a little bit of vanilla and a little bit of some
swirl in there and we get some sprinkles. We hit Amsterdam. We hit, you
know, London and we find a club and we do that one night, but we’re there for
a week. So it’s something different. We get to experience something different.

[23:40] [Unknown] We get to kind of maybe recharge some of that that swing or energy, but we’re

[23:48] [Guest] still we’re we haven’t compromised, you know, we neither one of us have lost
what we want to do. We’re just doing it a different way, as you said.

[23:59] [Ed] How do what’s your advice for people that have a lot of

[24:05] [Guest] FOMO because it’s it’s very real. They’re in they’re in chats or they see

[24:13] [Unknown] an event on Instagram or something and they they just they want to they want to

[24:20] [Ed] go, but they, you know, they can’t or they they book too many and they
finances don’t don’t allow for them to go. And they just have this, you know,
just this doom of FOMO looming over them. What’s the best way to kind of break
out of that or reset from feeling like that? Yeah. Well, I think first of all,

[24:44] [Phoebe] it’s probably going to take a little bit of digging to figure out what’s
underneath, you know, fear of missing out. What what is scary to you? And, you
know, come to me. Is it jealousy? I’m jealous that, you know, other people are
doing something and it’s it feels like I’m not getting to go and and that’s
taking something away from me. You know, usually, especially if it’s not your
partner that’s involved, jealousy is sort of like this universal scare city
mindset. Like, well, you know, the whole world and all the fun is a big pizza.
And if these people are taking a big slice over here because they’re in
Hito and they’re having a great time and I’m sitting on the couch, that’s
taking something from me for them to have this other thing. And so, you know,
it’s is that my mindset is my mindset that this is somehow costing me
something for these other people to be joyful and and then that’s a place to
dig and well, this this is sort of thought management work. Well, how do I

[25:37] [Unknown] think about fun in the world? And sometimes that is a root of jealousy for

[25:42] [Phoebe] people. Sometimes it’s it’s an in-be thing. I want those people have. And that
stirs in me kind of a yucky sadness. But can I use that to generate those
negative feelings or harder feelings are just as powerful to negative to
I’m sorry to get us to move. They’re just as powerful to generate energy as
positive ones. So we could also kind of harness that envy and say, wow, what
is this telling me? It’s telling me that I wish I was having some fun. Okay,
well, maybe the budget doesn’t allow me to go to Hito. But maybe the budget
allows my partner and I go out and dress really fancy and get a hotel room
in our town. And we’re going to make a big night of it. And we’re going to
really go up town. And we’re going to maybe even do some role play where we’re
out and pretend to be on a first date or any kind of imagination thing. Just
to harness some energy that I’m envious of other people are seeing. So, you
know, it could it could create fears of as we talk to beginning, well, maybe
this is slipping away from me because I’m getting older or my finances are
getting tighter as I do get older or our time is getting more limited. So I
think really looking at what’s happening behind that feeling of fear or
whatever it represents and then figuring out if those thoughts are serving me
and if those thoughts that I’m thinking can actually push me in a direction
that would make me feel better or create something new for me is really the
hard work. Because that’s hard work. It’s easy to just feel miserable. Oh,
everyone’s having fun, but me and kind of swirl in that negativity or that
hard versus stepping out of that and going, well, wait, what am I thinking here?
Do I think that them having fun is costing me? Well, that’s not how I want to be
the world. So I’m going to stop reminading on that thought. Or am I thinking
that they’re doing something fun? And I want to do something fun? Well, let me
put that energy into pursuing something fun within my scope. And let me go do
that. So I really push people to get underneath it and see what they can do

[27:42] [Unknown] about those hard feelings. Here’s why we sail on Virgin. It’s

[27:52] [Guest] adults only. No kids screaming at breakfast. No family buffet lines. Just
champagne at noon. Late night pool parties and people who actually want to be
there. The vibe. Think boutique hotel that happens to float. Tattoo parlors,
drag brunch, restaurants you’d actually pay for on land. Plus when you’re
looking to connect with other couples who know how to have fun, let’s just say
Virgin attracts a very specific type of adventurous. No wonder bread

[28:27] [Unknown] cruisers here. Just your people. Yes, great that you bring that up. It’s been a

[28:37] [Guest] while actually since we’ve talked about jealousy and envy. We did an episode

[28:41] [Unknown] pretty early on about that. And I think it’s important to kind of reinforce

[28:47] [Guest] that a lot of the feelings that we have kind of get shoved under those umbrellas
and that there is really that’s more symptomatic of something underlying
something else that’s going on. And I love the fact that you kind of say use that
energy and and and flip it. It’s kind of like adversity is the mother of
invention, right? So you’re like, Hey, I’ve got this this problem that I have to
solve and I love solving problems. That’s that’s my thing. So it really is this
opportunity to to create change in your own life and kind of figure out what

[29:24] [Unknown] that underlying thing is to to better your situation to better your mood. And

[29:30] [Guest] you’re so right in terms of it’s very easy to sit in that space. All you have
to do is watch the news, open Instagram, any social media platform, and you can
instantly feel this FOMO or this overwhelming sense of dread because there’s so
many things going on in the world where we’re just like it’s hopeless. Like we

[29:55] [Unknown] there’s there’s nothing we can do. And we all have to do a better job of trying

[30:02] [Guest] to reframe our thoughts and think about things in terms of well, what can I do
about it? Like it’s okay to to acknowledge those feelings, but like now what
are you going to do about it? Where are you going to go with this? So it’s fantastic.

[30:17] [Ed] I love that. Yeah, it’s like that. I always look at it as like the pie, the
pie of life, right? Where you maybe the pieces of your pie got a little off
balance where, you know, maybe too much time is spent on one area and you’re
neglecting maybe the another area and you need to kind of rebalance. And then
that FOMO is like you said, right in your face and then digging down into it
and going, what is it? Where, you know, what is going on? Why am I feeling like
this? And then you start to see, wow, you know, I guess I could I should, you
know, could should try not to say should work on this, right? Look at this and
and supplement that in a different way. If I can’t do this, then like you said, I

[31:08] [Unknown] really like that idea of, you know, interjecting that fun in a different way.

[31:12] [Guest] It pops into my mind too. It’s like, hey, all of our friends are at Hito hanging out
doing their thing. Well, no, not all of them. You probably have friends at home who
didn’t get to go to Hito too. Maybe you have them over for, you know, a drink,
go out on a date night with them, go see them, like whatever. It doesn’t matter.
Create your own fun space with the people who didn’t necessarily get to go. And, you know,
it’s a great opportunity to reach out to people you hadn’t talked to in a while and say, hey,
I’m feeling a little left out. So I thought I’d help, you know, help and contribute and I

[31:49] [Phoebe] haven’t seen you in a while. Yeah. Yeah. What a beautiful use of that energy. And, you know,
motions are just our brain telling us to do something. That’s the funny thing about emotions
is that it’s literally just a neural synapse coming from your brain into your body in this
form of feeling. And the brain is trying to get you to do something. And sometimes the thing
is just to be joyful and take in the moment. But sometimes the thing is to move, get up off the couch
and do something. And if we listen to emotions in an act on them, we tend to actually feel less of
the feeling because once we’re in an action state, we’re really not in an emotional state anymore.

[32:26] [Unknown] And so what happens is when people don’t move and they just sort of ruminate, the motion just

[32:31] [Phoebe] gets bigger and bigger and heavier and heavier because it’s not actually being used for what it’s
purposes. And it just doesn’t really know to do it itself. So it’s just like, well, I guess we’ll
just add story and stay here and mope around in this emotion versus taking it as a stimulus to go
and find something else to do to say to think about and all of those things. So yeah, excellent.

[32:52] [Guest] Yeah, it’s that that kind of downward spiral, right? Where the that sense of

[32:59] [Unknown] emotion that you’re feeling, whatever it is, if you sit in it too long, it just keeps
building on itself, which is kind of crazy. Yeah, and I think getting out and going and doing

[33:11] [Guest] things, I think that’s been one of our solutions too. And a lot of times when we feel overwhelmed,
we’ll go backpacking, we’ll go on a hike, we’ll go do something different. And it’s it’s really hard
to be to be in that couch mood and that kind of doom-scrolling mood when you’ve got
nature around you and birds flying and the sun is amazing or it’s raining on you, whichever
one, right? Like nature has a way of kind of breaking us out of that. So there’s something
that each of us really enjoys doing. And I think that’s that’s an opportunity,

[33:47] [Unknown] a motivation to go do it. It’s it’s maybe you can answer this because it’s it’s a brain chemistry

[33:54] [Guest] thing. Is this tied into that whole fight or flight kind of that that lizard brain that we all have
where our brain really has kind of something’s wrong or I’m doing okay and it’s is it that that’s

[34:09] [Phoebe] that’s being triggered? Well, I think anytime that we feel emotions and our nervous system gets
involved, then we’re dealing with old sciencey brain chemistry. So it I think it depends on

[34:22] [Unknown] you know what what’s being tripped in my system, for example. So if my reaction historically to

[34:31] [Phoebe] hard emotion, heavy emotion, emotions like fear, you know, anxiety, difficulty, being left out,
being you know, judging myself poorly or not worthy enough is to freeze, which is a nervous
system reaction, then all of the sudden I freeze that we all have these little computers in our
hands. So it’s very difficult to freeze and actually not take any data. We just still take
in data and of course what data do we take in more data that keeps us frozen, you know, we tend to
of course the algorithms are going to point us that way anyway, but we just choose to be in this
state of more fear, more anxiety, more worthlessness. And so that freeze that maybe was a nervous system
or a lizard brain reaction isn’t really serving us because we sort of double down with technology
or we double down with those things, whereas you know some people feel difficult or hard emotions
and they instantly go into action more of a fight. They’re like okay well I don’t want to feel
this way and so I’m going to find this a motivator to get up and go out to go outside to go speak
to someone I love to listen to a podcast and have a walk to get online and find out when the next
event is that I could go to and might could use closer to me or further away. They spring into action.
So yes, it all any other nervous system is activated. It’s just going to be how we respond and what
are go to to keep ourselves safe because that’s what the brain is always trying to do that lizard brain
always wants to keep us safe and for some of us safety means stay on the couch don’t move don’t
let you know don’t move a muscle you’ll just make it worse and that could be a hard place to be

[36:12] [Unknown] if we are those people right that’s okay the biggest thing to do is to know that about ourselves

[36:19] [Phoebe] if I have a tendency to do the same thing over and over again the minute I realize
have a tendency and step back a little bit and have some self awareness and say wow you know what
every time I get one this platform and see all of my friends going and dressed up in whatever
I feel bad in some way hmm that doesn’t seem to be serving me and from that badness I waste a
Sunday afternoon on the couch to get nothing done and feel terrible about myself gee maybe I need to
back up and choose something different just being able to pull yourself up and go hey I notice
maybe this is enough for our brain to kind of disconnect from us and be a little bit more of a
watcher and a little bit less of a doer and from that place we can actually change it’s like well
I don’t think this is serving me and you know what I’m not gonna pick up my phone Sunday mornings
anymore first thing because that’s what everybody’s post in their Saturday night fun and that

[37:12] [Unknown] always gets me around up so instead on Sunday mornings I’m gonna choose to have coffee with a friend

[37:17] [Phoebe] go for a hike meditate go to a yoga class read whatever but it’s not gonna be the same thing that

[37:23] [Unknown] keeps me stuck hey there podcast listeners you’ve been tuning into our episodes but if you

[37:34] [Guest] ever wondered about the steamy details of our adventures or maybe hungry for some sultry erotic

[37:40] [Ed] stories well guess what we’ve got something special just for you our exclusive patreon page
it’s like a VIP pass to the saucy or side of our world so if you’re ready for an exclusive

[37:55] [Guest] behind the mic experience head over to our patreon page now trust us this is where the magic

[38:01] [Unknown] happens see you there patrons yeah and it sounds like this is also something that we can kind of

[38:14] [Guest] train ourselves to do right that that whole fake it to you make it so if you do tend to be one of
those people that freezes and you you have this realization then you can start to say well I’m
gonna take an action instead like you said you know put the phone down don’t do that so this is
something I think that we can train ourselves out of and which just like no I’m recognizing this
and now I’m going to to to take a different action that’s great I like that I was I was also

[38:43] [Ed] thinking about you were talking in it triggered a thought in my head about when people some we’ve
seen a lot of friends get in the lifestyle and they never heard that term where your your fast
friends and you you just you you do everything together all the time to talk every day to the
and you just like burn out like your fast friends and you just you just burn the friendship out
because it was so fast so hot we’ve seen a lot of our friends do that where they’re at every event
like every week like Wednesday every weekend and then it just keeps they keep amping it up and
amping it up and all of a sudden they’re vanilla hunting and they’re like you know having a yoga
a vanilla yoga teacher over to their house and all of a sudden she you know there’s a three

[39:33] [Guest] some and like like it’s just like these are very specific examples and then and then all of a

[39:40] [Ed] sudden they’re gone they just disappear and you’re like well what happened to them they’re like

[39:46] [Unknown] gone it’s like this this burnout how do you how do you it’s like I feel like it’s a drug

[39:56] [Ed] and you know where people just get addictive to that energy and then it’s just done and I

[40:03] [Unknown] I have a great amount of sadness over that because we’ve seen so many friends do that and then

[40:10] [Ed] they they don’t want to have anything to do with with anybody in a lifestyle and even though I
say oh my gosh we could still go to dinner we’re not gonna like hit on you or you know we’re still
friends with you and they’re like no no we can’t we’re and it’s it’s it’s always a morning
process for me because I I miss them and I want to be their friend but they’ve they’ve stopped so
how do you like slow down or I don’t know I guess it’s like a drug you don’t know you’re

[40:49] [Unknown] any advice well I will say for the people who are going really fast and if they have someone

[40:56] [Phoebe] caring enough to say you know gee you seem to be amping this up and amping this up and amping this
up you know I think that that’s sort of like getting a brand new sports car and seeing how fast
you can drive how often you can drive how some dangerously you can drive the brain does like

[41:10] [Unknown] that amp up amp up but there comes a place where a lot of times that earning so fast and so hot

[41:16] [Phoebe] burns us and so I think then what happens is that when it burns us we don’t want anything to do
with it anymore you know I’ve wrecked the sports cars from the cell and I’m never gonna get
another one because I have now have kind of carved this part into my brain that says this activity
equals perfect danger and so if someone could wisely say to them hey there’s a chance that you

[41:38] [Unknown] were going to end up somewhere that you’ve amped up and amped up because also you’re probably

[41:43] [Phoebe] amped up risk and you’re amping up you know maybe affection or maybe if raving of other people’s
affections and emotions you’re taking a lot more chances with people right things or with your
money and so again if that goes badly it may leave a sour taste for your mouth and support
experience and I hate to see that happen to something yeah um they can be really great for you
that’s one thing I think for you Phoebe it’s just about allowing yourself to be sad and saying hey
these other people chose a path that ended in a place where they could no longer you know be in
this environment and that really makes me sad and to just grieve that and feel you know the hardness
of losing friendships but then using that grief to let you be grateful and love all the people

[42:27] [Unknown] that are still around and have not burned out in that blaze of glory so um it’s just you know
the compassion for you to say yeah this sucks and it’s okay to feel bad and sad that we don’t
get to see these people anymore and then again what we’ve been talking about this whole time how do I

[42:45] [Phoebe] do use that for what I can do oh I can still reach up to people who do take my calls and want to

[42:50] [Unknown] have dinner and and you know I can maybe mentor someone I see that younger and open to it that

[42:56] [Phoebe] does seem to be going a little quicker and share some historical stories of others who this
is ended poorly with just to give them some perspective not to control them and you know we never
have any hope about the outcome we just can give hope that maybe they’ll listen and it’ll go

[43:10] [Unknown] differently for them right right yeah oh yeah I hate I hate losing friends it’s a head and it’s

[43:21] [Guest] I get very attached to them you have anything else my love um but this last one which was the

[43:32] [Ed] the self-judgment component um yeah we we kind of read that we kind of covered it but um the

[43:43] [Unknown] Kel maybe you could do a little wrap up on um maybe just honoring um that we want

[43:51] [Ed] different things and it kind of goes back to that negotiation that I think you were talking
about earlier and then you know of course honoring our preferences and loving loving the change
right we get so used to um for like yeah I’m in the groove now things are going good cha cha cha
and then something happens you’re like and you’re like what and a lot of people are like oh
they get frustrated because they’re like no I want it to be the same and then how do you honor
that part and just go you know it’s it’s okay it’s it’s a change we can work with this it’s going
to be a little awkward it’s going to be a little uncomfortable but it it’ll be fine and how do

[44:37] [Phoebe] have any other tips on how people I first I want to say you said that beautifully I mean it is about

[44:43] [Unknown] this self-talk of and I think anytime something changes anytime we have to show up and negotiate

[44:51] [Phoebe] something you know if we can do it from a place of self-compassion you know no change that isn’t
and Kristen Neff is the queen of self-compassion and she’s written books about it and really
has an amazing take on it but she says no change ever happens and sticks and we have peace with it
if it doesn’t come from a place of compassion for ourselves so we think oh I’ll just kind of bully
myself and to going to things I don’t want to go to or I’ll just you know talk to myself like come
on you get up off the couch where are you being so this and this that never works and so what
does work is seeing ourselves as people who feel different feelings and have different experiences
and what need different things and then allowing that to be and honoring that by cheering with others
negotiating with our partners and good faith saying hey here’s my honest truth I want to hear
your honest truth I want to be able to understand that and have compassion for you and compassion
for me and move forward same thing with friendships you know to be able to show up and have
compassion and honor what people are choosing but then to not feel that that means something

[45:57] [Unknown] wrong with us if we want something different it just means we’re just people and all people are

[46:01] [Phoebe] different so I think the biggest complete place that we can really help ourselves is through compassion

[46:08] [Unknown] and if we can just give ourselves grace you know oh I feel a ton of FOMO that’s okay

[46:15] [Phoebe] everybody feels that sometimes it’s all right to feel sad and scared and worried and is there
anything here for us to do and if so let’s think about it let’s do it um I think that’s the
starting point for all of the that self-judgment and all those places yeah yeah I like that it kind of

[46:33] [Guest] takes us full circle with the whole why question and not compromising but coming to that
place of consensus where everybody’s kind of found a nice happy place to kind of be

[46:47] [Ed] yeah that’s so I I um I’ve used some some self-talk a lot lately just when I had a friend that says

[46:58] [Unknown] oh I never experienced FOMO and I’m like what I’m like how is that actually possible

[47:06] [Ed] which of course then triggered me even more and I’m like oh crying out loud like I’m like well
then what’s wrong with me like why do I expect right of course you know you’re just like
and you’re like okay stop it stop it you know and then relaxing doing the deep dive
and then recalibrating figuring it out and um of course loving the process because I’m different
than other people but still it bugs me still you can tell yeah but we have figured it out we figured
out um what’s working for us now and it’s it’s different um but I like it and our focus is more
on the community and and travel and those connections with individuals so yeah yeah yeah all right
well I think this was an excellent episode um and I really want everyone to know about
all the amazing classes courses retreats events etc etc etc that expensive connection
has going on this year where to find your socials all that good stuff because you guys are

[48:24] [Phoebe] a wealth of knowledge and a great resource thank you we can find us on our website first of all
is expansiveconnection.com slash ENM so that’s our fun spicy um where you can find all our offerings
so everything I’m gonna talk about is right there when you go onto that website you’ll find it
under offerings we’re also only on Instagram it’s expansive.connection.coaching so we have an
Instagram page that also has a lot of our information as well as some resources that we send out
for people to find what we’re listening to or reading as coaches um so then we have going on
as retreats we have been really finding that being in person with people and groups is really
beneficial for them they love it we love it it just feels like a calling that we’re really kind
of stepping up and meeting and so um we just finished our first couples retreat it was actually
um last weekend and Katherine and I led that with 10 amazing actually 11 amazing couples
and it was incredible and so we’re already planning uh like fall date it’s gonna be somewhere in
the mountains and a um February date that’s gonna be somewhere on the beach along the Gulf of Mexico
so pay attention to those they’re gonna be coming soon. Katherine is also co-hosting two
women’s retreats in the fall one is called women of the lifestyle and it’s October 9 through 12th
and another one is wild and wise thriving through minipoles and it’s for women who are
somewhere in the scope of minipausal life and it is November 13 through 16th and both of those
are gonna be located in the spooky mountains of Tennessee so you can find information about those
we also are really excited that we are starting a pure lead men’s group um is gonna be
meaning twice a month and this is gonna be called masculinity matters and it is going to be a really
great place for men to come and have discussions about all kinds of things together um it’s
gonna be led by men with men we’re really really excited about these groups and we think there’s
something that’s really needed and so just have support to have companionship to have you know
some guys that you can really lean on and talk about the hard things with and so we’re gonna have

[50:22] [Unknown] those starting up sometime in May so if you’re interested in those you’ll be able to find out

[50:26] [Phoebe] about those and we are educators really before we’re anything else so we are always having workshops
we’re always trying to do something where we teach people you know they can spend less than a quarter
of an hour time with us but they can get a whole 90 minutes worth of freight information that
they can watch over and over so we are gonna have a three-part sexual health workshop this summer
um it’s gonna be a part for men a part for women and a part for everyone and that’s gonna be
really exciting so that’s coming and then we’ll have more workshops in the fall because
one of us will get an inch to teach something and we’ll just throw our workshop together and
offer it to people so we’re really excited about a lot of the things we have going on

[51:02] [Guest] very very cool lots of lots of exciting learning opportunities for everybody absolutely more

[51:09] [Unknown] resources than podcasts that we’re trying to do for people yeah not the podcasts are wonderful

[51:15] [Phoebe] but it’s nice to be then we have more than just you know getting on and listening to the
podcast we used to have five six seven years ago it’s nice to have options for people to really

[51:24] [Guest] lean in on community yes yes yes yes yeah podcasts are very one way you get to hear us and you know
what we’re talking about and as an audience member you can’t go but but but but I have this question
and that’s really tricky which is a great segue to our conclusion but before we do that
we want to thank you for being on this episode with us we’ve got a couple other episodes planned
with the other members of your group to continue this kind of deep journey into
all things self-help yeah and and and how to have those great dialogues with yourself and with a
with a counselor or a coach to be able to evolve as individuals yeah yes absolutely and together

[52:22] [Phoebe] and together yeah yeah thank you both so much for having us and me here we really really
appreciate your work and the community and really are honored to to get to chat with you about
these things that really do matter and all face and thank you so much well thank you thank you

[52:36] [Guest] for for being here thank you thanks for tuning in we appreciate you joining our community don’t
forget your homework tell a friend about our show and if you’d like leave a review and a comment
because all of that engagement helps our videos to grow and our channel to grow so that more people
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swingeruniversity.com you can even leave us a 90 second message anonymously on our website

[53:14] [Unknown] and as we like to say keep learning keep growing and keep it sexy oh one last thing before you go

[53:44] [Guest] if this episode helped you in any way the single best thing you can do to support the show is leaving
a rating and review it takes 60 seconds and helps new people find us when they’re searching for

[53:56] [Unknown] relationship education and we’ve made it easy visit swingeruniversity.com forward slash review

[54:06] [Guest] all the instructions are there thank you for being part of this community we’ll see you again soon