Crossing The Line in The Lifestyle

[00:04] [Unknown] You’re listening to Swinger University with Ed and Phoebe, taking you back to those experimental years.

[00:14] [Guest] Here are your hosts, Ed and Phoebe.

[00:22] [Ed] This is Ed.

[00:23] [Phoebe] And this is Phoebe.

[00:25] [Ed] Today we’re talking about crossing the line.
How do you come back from an experience where one partner feels the other crossed the line or broke a rule?
We share at least one personal story.
Why it can occur and how you can come back after that.

[00:46] [Unknown] Yes.

[00:50] [Phoebe] So we will start with our story first, story time, story time.
So Ed and I were playing with a couple that we and we decided to host.
I think this was our very first hosted couple at our place.

[01:09] [Unknown] And I mean the evening was going really well.

[01:14] [Phoebe] We had appetizers.
We had a lot of drinks and the other wife really liked her drinks.
And she liked pouring Ed a lot of drinks.

[01:24] [Ed] Yeah.

[01:25] [Phoebe] And y’all know what happens when someone else pours your drink, right?
You can’t keep track.
So Ed got a little more flirty than normal because the flirt increases.

[01:39] [Ed] That’s what happens with me when I drink.

[01:43] [Phoebe] Yes.
So of course Ed cannot refuse this beautiful woman and the alcohol.
And you know, so things got going.
And the reason I was saying that is it’s kind of a precursor to what happened is, you know, sex continued.
It started in the living room.
It went to the bedroom.
And then it occurred in other rooms of the house, sometimes with Phoebe, sometimes without.
Yeah.
So this was a rule of ours that was broken because we always have sex in the same room.
Why?
Because we like to watch each other.
Yes.
We really enjoy that part of it.
It’s very exciting to connect with one another, to play off each other’s emotions and facial expressions and excitement.
It’s extremely hot.
And so when I, you know, was done having my orgasm, I look up and I’m like, where’s Ed?

[02:53] [Unknown] It’s gone.
Poof.

[02:57] [Ed] Disappear.

[02:58] [Phoebe] Sounds and sounds in the other parts of the house.
So you know, wasn’t a big deal in the moment.
It was a little disconcerting.
I remember feeling a little like, oh, I’m not sure how I feel about that.
And, but it wasn’t like a deal breaker to ruin the night.

[03:23] [Unknown] Right.

[03:26] [Phoebe] However, it did create a situation where it did warrant some discussion the day after, two days after, after, you know, all the hormones die down.

[03:39] [Ed] Right.
For both of us.
Right.
And it was digesting what had happened, understanding what had happened, getting some perspective on, you know, what happened.
Maybe some of the reasons why it had happened and then figuring out strategy.

[04:00] [Phoebe] Right.
And then discovering why that was uncomfortable for me and why some weird little feelings came up about that.
Which I didn’t expect.
Because I was very comfortable with this couple.
I was very comfortable with the evening.
We had, we, we know them.
So it wasn’t, you know, a one night stand.
Right.
So, you know, it was a little, I was a little, I guess, taken a back by my reaction.
So that was interesting to me to have to explore that.

[04:39] [Ed] Now in a, a similar vein of maybe people not being on the same page.
One of our earliest, maybe our first experience in the lifestyle was with a particular couple.

[04:59] [Unknown] And pretty much every time we ran into them, they were in two different places at the same time.

[05:07] [Ed] They never seemed to be on the same page.
And then we started noticing some of the fighting that was going on as a result of this strange behavior.
They eventually got divorced.
We found out later.
But he wasn’t on the same page as her.

[05:30] [Unknown] They had different reasons and different motivations for the lifestyle.

[05:38] [Phoebe] And to clarify, we were starting to travel in a group of swingers that would frequently go out to nightclubs together
and go do things together, small house parties, etc.
So that’s where we started to see them.
And us being so new, we thought they were very advanced because they were constantly apart from one another.
And some couples are.
And that’s how they choose to play.
They spend the evening mostly away from one another.
They gather their dates and then they bring them together, which is also a fun strategy.
So we started off being a little jealous.
And then we realized, wait a minute.

[06:19] [Ed] That’s not what it looks like.

[06:20] [Phoebe] I think they’re crying in the bathroom, something happened.

[06:23] [Unknown] So less than 18 months later, the life of a swinger.

[06:31] [Phoebe] They were gone out split up divorced onto other partners.

[06:36] [Ed] So it can go two different ways.
And let’s get into some of those reasons why it happens.

[06:48] [Phoebe] Yes.
We are going to approach it from the perspective of us.
Right.
Very dedicated, very loyal, extreme amount of trust.
And not getting into the lifestyle to fix anything.
This is just our cherry on top.

[07:09] [Ed] Right.
The only things we’re fixing is our orgasm list.

[07:16] [Unknown] Right.

[07:17] [Phoebe] So why does it happen?
You can have uninhibited influences, right?
You drank too much, you smoked too much, you ingested something.
Right.
So you’re under the influence, so your inhibitions are not there.

[07:37] [Ed] Right.
Hormones are up, inhibitions are down.
Things kind of progress very quickly when you’re in that state.

[07:46] [Phoebe] Right.
Wait.
Miscommunication is a big part of it.
You misread the signal.
It’s happened a lot with Ed and I because we tried to come up with a signal.
We learned, oh, this is the thing.
Right.

[08:02] [Ed] You have to have a signal.
Right.
Oh, the triple squeeze meant run very fast in the opposite direction.

[08:10] [Unknown] Right.
Make a move.

[08:12] [Phoebe] Dang it.
We always screwed that up.
We couldn’t get it.
We couldn’t get our signal, our thing that worked well for us in the right situation.
We didn’t try more as code.
Yeah.

[08:23] [Unknown] We should have resorted to more as code or some other language maybe.

[08:29] [Ed] But our trick has been don’t try to be subtle and sly with some hidden secret under the table,
whispered half clue thing because you never know how that’s going to go.
But just to say straight up to each other.
Okay, this is what I’m thinking and everybody can just level the playing field right there.

[08:58] [Phoebe] I mean, the signal has worked on, you know, drink dates.

[09:03] [Unknown] When you’re like, they’re going a little too long.

[09:08] [Phoebe] It can work.
They get a little tricky.
But we tend not to go on drink dates very often because it’s just.

[09:18] [Unknown] Yeah.

[09:19] [Phoebe] They’ve never really worked out well for us for some reason.

[09:24] [Ed] Very hit and miss.
Very hit and miss.

[09:28] [Phoebe] And the reason is because you’re trying to coordinate four different personalities in one date night.
There’s a lot riding on it.
People hire to babysitter.
You got all dressed up.
You spent money on drinks.
You do want something to happen.
And this is why events are great because you meet someone and if it’s not great,
well, then you have 500 other people or 300 other couples.

[09:54] [Ed] Lots of backup plans.

[09:55] [Phoebe] Exactly.
Exactly.

[09:57] [Ed] So nonverbal miscommunication, it happens.

[10:05] [Unknown] All right.

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[11:12] [Phoebe] One partner could be more conservative, one more enthusiastic, one’s more flirty, one’s less flirty.
Ed’s more flirty than I am.
Yes.
Ed’s a very good part.
And what else, what else?
So, you know, therefore you’re kind of not on the same page if one person is just a little bit different in that way.

[11:37] [Unknown] Yeah.

[11:38] [Ed] And a lot of that comes down to being able to tell your partner where you’re at.
I’m just not feeling it or I’m not feeling them.
But that, you know, being on the same page requires a little bit of communication.

[11:56] [Unknown] Right.

[11:57] [Phoebe] Or negotiating it.
I mean, a lot of couples are like, you know, hey, I’m not into her or I’m not into him.

[12:03] [Unknown] But honey, if you want to take off and go have fun time with him, go for it.

[12:10] [Phoebe] Right.
If that’s how you play, then yes, of course, you would have that type of communication.

[12:19] [Ed] The other play partner, this is where the group dynamics come in.
We’ve had the situation happen before.
A couple times.
A couple times, yeah, where one partner will want to lure you away.
And I don’t know that it’s malicious.
No.
I think part of the dynamic is some people prefer to play separately and we don’t.

[12:47] [Phoebe] Or without distraction.
Right.

[12:50] [Ed] Sometimes there’s too much going on.

[12:52] [Phoebe] Too much distraction.
The room’s too hot.
There’s not enough space on the bed, like all that, right?

[12:57] [Ed] There’s a whole bunch of different reasons to find a different bed place to have sex.

[13:03] [Unknown] Right.

[13:04] [Ed] But getting dragged out of a room means that you are now, you know, it’s horrible to be dragged around by your…

[13:13] [Phoebe] It’s true.

[13:16] [Ed] Get over here.

[13:17] [Unknown] Okay.
Okay.

[13:20] [Ed] And, you know, one of the incidents that had happened with us, where I’d gotten separated,

[13:25] [Unknown] I’d gotten kind of like dragged away by this woman.

[13:30] [Ed] Oh, woman.
It’s terrible.
I missed out on some stuff that had happened that was going on in the other room.
Yeah.
Phoebe was having a great two guys and I missed the whole party.

[13:44] [Phoebe] Yeah.

[13:45] [Ed] Or at least that particular good part of the party.
Right.
And it wasn’t more than five minutes.
So, like…

[13:52] [Unknown] I don’t know.

[13:53] [Phoebe] It seemed like…

[13:54] [Ed] It may have been 10 or 15.

[13:56] [Unknown] Yeah.

[13:57] [Phoebe] But…

[13:58] [Ed] A lot happened in a pretty short period of time.
Yeah.
This wasn’t like…
Yes.
A lot in an hour.

[14:04] [Phoebe] A lot can happen.

[14:06] [Unknown] Mm-hmm.
But it’s kind of…

[14:11] [Phoebe] That gave us an opportunity to, again, see what happens, right?
This time, you were out of the room.
I was in the room.
Now, this is after the situation that we just explained to you in the beginning of the
podcast.
Right.
So, that…
This situation wasn’t bad.
Right.
It…

[14:32] [Unknown] It…

[14:33] [Phoebe] It didn’t bother me as much.

[14:35] [Ed] I think it annoyed both of us because we missed…
Yeah.

[14:40] [Phoebe] Moments.

[14:41] [Ed] Right.
But it wasn’t…
It wasn’t like an emotional thing.

[14:44] [Unknown] It was like…

[14:45] [Ed] Darn, I wish I’d seen that…
Right.
You know, moment in the movie.
You know, you…
Oh, I missed that line of dialogue.

[14:51] [Unknown] And it gave us an opportunity to tell each other play by play what happened.

[14:58] [Phoebe] And then to realize, you know, that’s not really our thing because we’d rather see it
than have to recount it play by play.
Some people really like that.
For us?

[15:09] [Ed] I like recounting it.
But I’d prefer to recount it from my own memories of having seen it, right?
Or talk about it together afterwards and kind of replay it together.

[15:19] [Phoebe] Together.

[15:20] [Ed] But a second-hand story, while exciting and kind of fun.
Right.
It’s not quite the same thing as being right there.
I know.
Right.
Like, somebody can give you a synopsis of the greatest movie ever played.
But no.
It’s just not the same.

[15:37] [Phoebe] I know.
I know.

[15:39] [Ed] You don’t get the smell of vision that goes with it.

[15:41] [Phoebe] The smell of vision.
Yes.
There’s that.
The next thing would be an unconsidered situation that wasn’t discussed, which becomes a rule later.

[15:57] [Ed] We had a lot of those early on.
And not in kind of like a bad or a derogatory way.
But just, oh my god, we didn’t think about that particular sequence of events or interconnection between multiple people.
You don’t know what you don’t know, right?
You can’t imagine all of the scenarios and all the combinations of scenarios.

[16:21] [Phoebe] And how you’re going to feel about it.

[16:24] [Ed] You don’t know.

[16:25] [Unknown] Right.

[16:27] [Ed] You just have no idea what’s going to happen.
And you’ve got two new people in the room that you’ve never been with before.
So you’ve got some wild cards going on.
They may have something really kinky that they do all the time you’ve never seen it before.

[16:47] [Phoebe] Oh, yeah.

[16:50] [Unknown] Right?
Yeah.

[16:53] [Phoebe] That’s always really exciting when you’re with a couple that has something super kinky to you.
It’s super kinky.
You’re like, oh my god.

[17:02] [Ed] Some new trick.
Yeah.
You hadn’t seen before.

[17:05] [Phoebe] It’s so fun.

[17:06] [Ed] Well, we didn’t talk about this rule.

[17:10] [Unknown] I kind of like this new kink.

[17:15] [Phoebe] Hence the joy of swinging.

[17:17] [Ed] Yeah.
And it’ll either become a rule like we have to do that next time.

[17:22] [Phoebe] Uh-oh.

[17:23] [Ed] Or a rule I don’t ever want to do that.

[17:26] [Phoebe] Right.
Now you can also have, you know.

[17:36] [Ed] We’ve been talking about innocent reasons for things happening, right?
A miscommunication, a misunderstanding, right?
Like these aren’t intent based issues.
I didn’t set out to misunderstand each other.
You didn’t set out to have this other person, you know, kind of pull you away.

[18:02] [Unknown] That wasn’t the plan.
However.

[18:06] [Ed] We go back to our second story that we talked about where there was the husband and wife
who aren’t anymore.
There were no various reasons why they weren’t ever on the same page.
We got the impression and through this group of our friends,
we found out that this guy intentionally was stepping outside of the rules.
He broke the rules all the time because he wanted to.

[18:37] [Phoebe] And swinging was just a nice definition for cheating.

[18:42] [Ed] Right.
This was a convenient excuse to set situations up where he was basically able to cheat on his wife
and they were both, quote, consenting because they were both swingers.
It wasn’t the case.
There was a lot less consent going on in that consensual non-monalgamive relationship.

[19:07] [Phoebe] Two different people on, not on the same page.

[19:10] [Ed] Yeah.

[19:11] [Unknown] Yeah.

[19:13] [Phoebe] How do you come back?

[19:15] [Ed] These, as we’ve always looked at them, are growth opportunities.
You learn something from a good experience or a bad experience.
And it gives you time to process your feelings and think about it and grow from that experience.

[19:35] [Phoebe] Definitely.
And you also need to be very mindful of the compassion you have for one another.
Realize that your partner is not how to intentionally hurt you.

[19:45] [Ed] More likely than not.
Yeah.
They’re not out to intentionally hurt you.

[19:50] [Phoebe] So normally people aren’t even with the nefarious example that you had.
You know, the intent wasn’t to purposely inflict harm on her.
It was just very perhaps selfish of him to do that.
Yeah.

[20:07] [Ed] You know, inadvertently through his selfishness.

[20:10] [Unknown] Yeah.

[20:12] [Phoebe] Communication.
Again, key, key, key.
We talk about this all the time.
Everyone talks about it.
It’s so important.
And you talk it out and you listen to one another and actually hear one another.
To what each person is saying.
Because these are going to be some of your most vulnerable moments.

[20:33] [Ed] Absolutely.
You’re going to experience things that are necessary to have these conversations.
And so you’re opening yourself up to this very vulnerable situation.
So you’ve stepped out or you’ve tripped over a line accidentally.
And now you’ve got to be honest as to why you did it or what happened.
And be honest about how it made you feel when that happened.

[21:05] [Phoebe] Right.
And Ed was always really great at asking questions.
When I would reveal something that felt hurtful.
Or if I was struggling with an emotion or a concept, Ed would always ask a question.
How can I better support you?
What can I do asking those questions?
What can I do to make this better, to make you feel more comfortable, to make everything smoother?
Yeah.

[21:42] [Unknown] Whatever the need is, right?

[21:46] [Phoebe] Take responsibility for your choices and your actions.

[21:49] [Unknown] Yep.

[21:50] [Phoebe] You know, you make a choice.
You perform an action.
You don’t do it on purpose.
You take responsibility.
You say sorry.
Oh my gosh.
I’m so sorry.
You’re right.
I had to mistrink that night or I did this or whatever.

[22:04] [Ed] I didn’t even think about it that way.

[22:06] [Phoebe] I was having a good time dancing.
I’m sorry.
I left you for an hour while I was cutting the rug.
Yeah.
Whatever.

[22:14] [Unknown] You know, appreciate one another.

[22:19] [Phoebe] Your partner’s honesty is going to be vulnerable as I talked about before.
And it can be difficult.
So appreciate one another.
Be respectful.
Be kind.

[22:30] [Ed] And then you’re going to need to reestablish trust.
So once you get to a mutual understanding, you can sometimes you can even take a step back
from the lifestyle.
And you know, give yourself a little vacation from the fun.

[22:51] [Phoebe] Right.

[22:52] [Ed] To get in touch with your own feelings to gain perspective.
Right.

[22:59] [Phoebe] It’s a lot to process.
But depending on your background, for me, it was a lot to process.
For some people, I know it’s not because they grew up literally swinging as teenagers.
And then they grew up in a culture where sharing each other’s girlfriends was just normal.
So the concept of it being wrong or being dirty or whatever kind of label you assigned to it just wasn’t there.
And they, they like didn’t even have to consider or process any of that information.
That was just normal for them.
So again, wherever you’re at in life, you may have concepts, precepts that you need to process.
Process, reconsider.
Wow.

[23:54] [Unknown] Yeah.

[23:55] [Ed] So take a break.
Yeah.
Just take a pause.
Take a pause.
It’s not a race.
If you’re watching through it, you know, there’s no one’s going to know any different other than you and your partner.
And you know, if your partner seems like they’re struggling with something, propose that you take a step back and go, hey, look, let’s not go to that party next month.
Let’s just take a break for a little bit.
We can talk about it and get in touch with our feels and see where we’re at.

[24:28] [Unknown] In touch of our feels, reconnect with one another.

[24:33] [Phoebe] That’s very important.
And so, you know, if you choose to take a step back or not, of course, the reconnection is going to be part of that.

[24:42] [Unknown] Yeah.

[24:43] [Ed] It helps to establish that bond, the trust, that connection that you have with your partner.
And helps them to understand that you’re not pulling away from them through this act or action that happened together.

[25:02] [Phoebe] It’s your journey together.
Be patient with one another because you most likely will move at a different speed or pace with your emotions and how you process information.

[25:16] [Ed] You probably came from different backgrounds.

[25:19] [Unknown] Even if you grew up together, things are different.

[25:22] [Ed] People will approach things from two different ways.
And getting everybody all on the same page is sometimes a little bit of a balancing act.

[25:33] [Unknown] Yeah.

[25:35] [Phoebe] Some people are a marinator.
Some people are…
It’s the opposite of marinade.

[25:41] [Unknown] Flash fire?

[25:45] [Ed] I don’t know.

[25:46] [Phoebe] Is that dessert where you throw the fire?
Flambé.

[25:50] [Unknown] Flambé!
Ta-da!
Yeah.

[25:53] [Phoebe] I’m a flambé processor.
I like to process and get on with a move it.

[26:00] [Ed] So be patient with one another process and recover your pace.
And it’s important to voice your needs.
So be clear.
Hey, I need some more hugs for the next few days.
Or, you know, some more cuddle time.
I typically like to…
Yeah, this is my story.

[26:27] [Phoebe] This is my story.

[26:29] [Unknown] I saw you out of your like…

[26:33] [Phoebe] I’m like…
You could say I typically like when you talk dirty to me during sex, but maybe not for a while.
So Ed would never say that.

[26:48] [Ed] Nope.
I want you to talk dirty all the time.
Dirty all the time.

[26:52] [Unknown] Yeah.
The dirty are the better.

[26:55] [Phoebe] So, you know, things that you need, things that you’ve done before that maybe need to hold off on, you know, it’s…

[27:05] [Ed] It could even be, hey, you know, make eye contact with me when we’re in the same room with another couple.
Just…
Every once in a while, just look over and connect and…
Little smile.
Right, right, right.
Little stick your tongue out at or something.

[27:22] [Unknown] Right, right, right.

[27:24] [Ed] Just making that connection.

[27:27] [Unknown] And sometimes that’s enough.

[27:31] [Phoebe] You may establish new rules or clarify old ones if there’s some miscommunication.

[27:37] [Unknown] Yeah.

[27:38] [Ed] Every experience that you have helps to focus what has happened and where you need to go.
So it’s all learning process.

[27:49] [Phoebe] Yes.
And then set new priorities to get back on track.
Hey, I want to take a break for the next three months.
But I’m not ready to give up swinging.
And here are the needs.
I need more date nights.
I need to sit next to you on the couch every night.
I need more hugs.

[28:07] [Unknown] Whatever it is, reestablish your needs.

[28:14] [Phoebe] Set your priorities.
And then you can get back on track.
And your priority might just be your family.
And you could…

[28:21] [Unknown] And you might be in a place where you are saying, you know, that was fun.

[28:26] [Phoebe] We had a good time.
It was a fun experiment.
But you know what?
It’s not our thing right now.
Let’s focus on the kids and the family.
And the business or whatever you’ve got going on.

[28:40] [Unknown] And you know, that’s that.
In summary, be kind to one another.

[28:54] [Ed] And remember that you are on this journey together.
A lot of factors play into a decision and action.
Hopefully you are in a relationship where your partner is willing to listen.
Be introspective and try to articulate what occurred.
Not every situation needs to be a deal breaker.
And you can come back from it.

[29:22] [Phoebe] Absolutely.
Before you turn off our podcast to take care of all the vanilla things pulling you away,
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[30:05] [Unknown] Your horizontal enrichment podcast.

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