Why Swingers Face Judgment: Unpacking Society’s Need to Impose Beliefs

Why does Swinging make some people angry?

Is it okay to tell people what they can do in the privacy of their own homes?

Why do Americans want to control other people’s choices?

(Music)

Welcome to Swinger University. I’m Phoebe. And I’m Ed.

Dun, dun, duh.

Yeah, we’ve been talking about doing,

well we’ve done aspects of this topic before. And we’ve been wanting to do this for a while. Years. Years.

And some of these stories that we’re going to talk about are actually years old, but they’re still relevant and they’re still topical because of everything that’s going on right now in the world. Yes.

start with this. Swinging right now is huge in popular culture. If you look on YouTube, you look at any of the other channels out there, you do a search for Swinging. TikTok, ABC News has done several specials on it. Oh, gosh. There’s a new special coming out this Friday about Swinging and Mormons and the whole thing. And it’s like this reality TV.

It’s all out there.

Yeah.

It’s all out there.

Yes. It’s awesome.

But what’s interesting, though, is that there are still people who get really, really upset about the personal choices that people make in their lives. And this goes way beyond Swinging, but we’re going to talk about Swinging specifically today.

But you can kind of read between the lines and see how this can apply to other things.

part of what we’re going to talk about today is a philosophical discussion about fears and insecurities that people have

vanilla people feel that they need to be concerned about what everyone else does sexually.

As repressed of a culture that we are, why does everyone feel like they need to stick their nose into your bedroom?

Right. Like they’re the ones having sex with the lights off. So why do they need to shine the light on you?

When you make an interesting point, because if you’re so offended by sex, why are you even thinking about it so much? Why are you talking about it so much? Why are you worried about what other people are doing about it? I mean, you won’t talk to your kids about what they should and shouldn’t do and the proper use of condoms because, heaven forbid, that teenagers actually have sex because guess what, folks? They do. It happens. And instead of hiding,

you should talk to them about it. So let’s kind of swing it back towards the lifestyle and talk about one of the reasons why maybe this is a little bit of an issue and why some people who are watching this channel who are swingers may want to be concerned a little bit.

Come to find out, adultery is actually a crime in some states.

have to figure out whether swinging with consent is actually classified as adultery. I think it still would be because you’re married and you’re having sex with someone who you’re not married to. Therefore, it is adultery, even if you’re consenting.

we have a map. We’ll publish it along with the episode, a little screenshot of it. In some states, it’s a $10 fine, like in Maryland.

Whoop-de-doo, who cares? $10. But in other states, it’s actually potentially jail time for it. Yikes.

it’s a legitimate concern.

I guess my question would come to with this.

A, how did that come about? Why did they think that adultery was so bad that it should be a law and more specific? Because I know why, because we were a Puritan nation when we were founded. It was ultra conservative people who founded the country.

And they had all kinds of rules about sex and what you should and shouldn’t do.

seems that some states still have these laws on the books.

Fascinating.

Yeah, very fascinating.

We do not live in one of those states, thank goodness. No, we don’t. But Florida is one of those states and right next to Florida, Alabama,

what else is right next there?

All the southern states right up to Louisiana. Virginia. All the way north to Virginia. Like I said, Maryland’s there. DC is not a state, but there you go.

And swinging is huge in Florida.

Yeah, I think Utah is in here, Arizona.

Well, I’m surprised by that because they…

As we know, there will be a TV show on talking about swinging in Utah because they’re Mormons. There you go.

Oh, man. But that state and the Mormon religion have history of having multiple lives. Right. Way back.

But that’s not adultery because they were all married.

Oh, yeah.

Oh, my God. Talk about…

Wait. Talk about a friend of the rule. Oh, because I see. You can be a polygamist, but you can’t have adultery. Because they got their tax dollars because you were married.

You could be. Because when you’re married, you’re a corporation, you get the dollars.

So what it comes down to is you can have five wives as a polygamist, but if you sleep with a sixth woman…

Oh.

Then you’re in trouble.

This is why we can’t have nice things.

Oh, my goodness.

Okay. So… Yes. The origin of this comes about from our trip to Colorado. We went to a house party and we were talking to the hosts of the party. And one of the stories that came up was the Crock-Pot party.

Oh, my goodness. It’s

known in the news as the Crock-Pot party. We’ll have a link to the video or at least to the news articles that talk about it because I think the videos are… are gone by this time.

The long and short of it is there was a swinger party in a neighborhood and the police were called and the party was broken up and it made the news.

Okay. I get calling the cops when a party is out of control.

Somebody parked on your lawn. They’re throwing up all over the place. Whatever.

I get that. Okay. Wait. But you have to tell them why it was called the Crock-Pot party. I’ll get to that. Okay. Okay. I’ll get to that. Okay. I just had to preface it. You’re building it up? Okay. I’m building it.

Okay. So I get drunken behavior. I get the noise pollution. You got the music cranked up to 11, right? Like full on rock and roll party. Yep.

But if that’s not going on, then why would you call the police? Well, let’s get into this story.

Okay.

I’ve got some quotes here. This is really great.

Residents on Avery way in castle rock say organized sex parties at one home are causing parking problems and noise. Here you go.

But they are most concerned with the sexual nature of those events and any exposure to children.

Huh. Another quote.

Wait. Oh, are we doing it again? We’re going

to do folks never going to go through the discussion.

Okay. Okay.

Oh my God. So many. I think it is disgusting. One neighbor said.

Okay. I have comments on that too. Keep going.

Some of them are so old that they struggled walking up the stairs. The neighborhood said. Okay.

Got it.

So let’s talk about this for a little bit.

Okay. So let’s talk about one.

The first quote that there there’s an any exposure to children.

Yeah. There are no children at swing or parties. I know you have children at swing or parties. I hope you get arrested.

Right. Absolutely. Well, and I just love how people always use the children card. It’s the children. It’s the children. Right. Just to make a big, like they’re not even there. They make trying to make a big deal out of something. That’s nothing.

That’s ridiculous. What they were most concerned with is their children having to know what was going on at the party or hear what was going on at the party or see what was going on.

Like this is any different than at a hotel. You guaranteed a hundred percent. You’re at a Disney hotel and you hear boots banging on the, on the room next door to you. Cause.

Cause people have sex in hotels.

Cause people have sex in hotel.

By the way, you’re stealing one of our stories later, but we’ll keep going.

Oh, sorry. Well, but still like, Oh my God, the children heard

like, what really? And I think, I think part of that is parents don’t want to have to explain that adults actually have sex. They don’t know how to have that conversation with their kids.

It’s not my problem. What children exist because adults had sex. Oh my God. That’s biology. That’s how it works. One-on-one. You didn’t know that. I’m sorry. I broke the secret.

But the fact is that it’s not like they’re doing this on the front lawn. They’re doing it in the privacy of the house. The, the curbs are cold. There’s nobody there. And in this particular party, I read through some more of the details from the hosts.

They soundproof the house to minimize the amount of noise that could be heard. They made sure that nothing that was going on was going on outside in the backyard. It was all indoors. Like most responsible swingers do. Most responsible swinger parties. Yeah. But I think it’s mostly the fear of what they don’t know.

I know.

They’re thinking, I don’t know what goats are being sacrificed in the living room. I don’t know what they think goes on at swinger parties. They just watch our episodes. They would know all about what happens at swinger parties.

Why can’t they have the image that I have as a teenager that sex parties were all Roman Grecian, just like curtains and you know, beds and pillows. The lights are on. No, the lights are low and people are feeding you grapes and you’re getting fanned and it’s just this low, nice hum and there’s maybe harps in the background and it’s just, there’s moaning and you know, to

a toga party once that was fun.

It was fun. Yeah.

You picked up on the child aspect of this, but the thing that I was most concerned about was the concern that they had that there were sexual things going on at the event.

Okay. My argument is how many other parties are drunken disorderly behaviors going on? You’re not concerned about that.

And how many vanilla parties turn into a sex party at the hot tub and just because it wasn’t labeled that way. It was the barbecue on the 4th of July instead of a swinger party, but sex still happened. Just because.

Yeah. Hot tubs are a gateway drug to swinging. I’m just, yes. We have a time.

All about that. Yes. Yes, we do. It’s very cute.

And I think, I think that the other one that I found was, was really funny was some of them were so old that they struggle.

Oh, that’s just shaming. That’s just blatant. I think it’s great. You’re just jealous.

Exactly. Because if I was so old that I had a walker and I was still going to swinger parties.

Absolutely. Cheers to you. 100%. I’m just saying.

Cheers to you. And we’ve heard, we’ve heard at senior homes. Oh God. Yes. The rampant sex that’s going on there. I mean, these people are turned up.

Oh yeah.

They’re turned up.

Yeah. They kind of have some STI problems or other issues going.

So neighbors are clearly projecting their own images onto this.

Exactly. The projection, hence being the quote, I think it’s disgusting. Poor, poor, poor individual that thinks sex is disgusting. I feel so bad for them.

So the worst part about this, besides the party getting broken up, which is unfortunate and the HOA would gotten bald and all kinds of crap happened. Oh, and by the way, the crock part.

Crock pot.

The crock pot is part of this party. Just so we don’t like to drop that lead.

Yeah.

One of the guests brought food and they happened to bring it in a crock pot. But the whole thing got names.

Oh God. Crock pot part. So one person brought it in a crock pot.

People were seen bringing crock pots in for food. I mean, it was a potluck. It happens.

Right? Oh man.

it’s one thing to be offended by something and call the police. It’s another to illegally block the driveways of the party. Oh yes.

To key the cars of the party and cause who knows how much financial damage to property.

So breaking the law to stop a perfectly legal party, that’s okay because sex is happening.

Oh my God. Wow.

It’s the mentality here that’s that just. Boggles the mind. It just blows my mind. It’s like you’re having sex. I’m going to kill you. What? Wait, what?

That escalated quickly. Like re-offended. Sit in your house and stew about it. Sure.

But to like actually cause somebody else’s property damage. Damage?

Wow. This is the sexual pent up energy and guilt and shame that a lot of people have around sex and honestly, it’s really sad. It is. It’s tragic and it’s devastating to people’s lives to have that type of belief system or shame that you live with.

It’s got to be debilitating.

Absolutely.

Just.

You’re. Stunned at everything that goes on in the world. Yeah. I mean.

Just be so. It’s like cutting off a limb. I mean you aren’t fully you.

Right.

Right. I mean I have relatives that just coexist together in the same household as man.

Yeah, you get sexless marriages and how that can happen.

That’s one story. The other one that happened was one that happened to us. Personally we were at a local hotel party. Not a takeover because we don’t fully take over the hotel.

everyone always says they’re full.

They call them takeovers.

Rare. But yes.

somehow we actually know how there was a single male who bought a hotel room but couldn’t get tickets. So he went to the media and basically outed the party to the local news.

They showed up to try and find out what was going on at the sex party.

They actually found us on the internet. They called us.

Yeah. They wanted us to comment on it. I was like. Basically gave them the finger.

NERP.

And had no interest in contributing to that nonsense.

No. I’m not going to step in that.

And what’s funny is that single male of course now is banned from those parties. Would never be able to attend those again. Potentially ruined it for everybody who was there. Potentially caused who knows how much damage. If the news had actually gotten in and outed people. Talk about doxxing people. Oh yeah. Holy shit. People could have lost their jobs. They could have been. Who knows. Who knows what could happen.

All because of one’s pre-buying tickets and not realizing that it was already sold out. And wanted a

reason.

Well and he wasn’t vetted.

I mean as a single person you always need to be vetted. There was a whole bunch of stuff.

Now the interesting thing was the way that the news media took it. And the way that they interviewed casual people. Vanilla people who happened to be walking by. And the outrage about oh my god they’re having a sex party at a hotel.

To your point.

Anybody who’s watching this right now or listening to this podcast will tell you they’ve heard people having sex at hotels.

That’s kind of what happens at hotels.

So to be offended that people are having sex at a hotel is kind of like being offended that hotels exist. I know.

So you’re supposed to go on vacation and not have sex.

You’re not supposed to have date night with your husband and have a little staycation. You go downtown. You get a hotel and you have sex in your hotel. Because you don’t can’t make noise at home because you have kids. But you can’t do that because it’s a hotel.

And you can’t go on your honeymoon at the hotel in the honeymoon suite. Which by the way most hotels have and have sex. Why? Because you shouldn’t be having sex at a hotel. People might. People.

You might expose the children.

No. You’re not going to expose the children.

Oh my god. That was the church lady face.

That was the church lady face.

I miss the church lady face.

Kippy thing.

So that was one of the examples. But I’m sure anybody who’s watching this can cite other examples about how this has happened or a party that’s gotten broken up because the police showed up. Weep into parties. The police show up and then go guess what? You’re not breaking the law. The music’s not too loud because we can’t hear it outside. You just have a Karen neighbor who’s calling something on you. We actually did a whole Patreon episode about a party and the neighbor and all that.

And the Karen. Yep.

But they basically sorry to bother you but we have to do a check.

You guys have a nice evening and they turn around and they walk away.

Yes.

They come back an hour later in plain clothes to join the party.

Yeah.

No. Darn it.

A lot

of correctional officers in the lifestyle.

Yes.

That would have been awesome.

That would have been great.

What this all comes down to is what some people call pearl clutching and inflicting your opinions on other people. For those of you who do not know what pearl clutching is. Oh my god.

This is my best pearl clutching and impersonation.

So you’re wearing a pearl necklace. Of course this is a dated. Right with a cardigan sweater and it’s a church lady.

And I take it it’s a particular time in our culture like what 50s.

Yeah maybe earlier but yes it it’s all about being mortified that someone’s doing something that you just can’t imagine.

Yeah.

And. Casting judgment. Here’s the thing.

My deal is you don’t have to condone it. You don’t agree with it. Fine. Don’t bless it. Don’t give it your you know approval. Sure.

Don’t participate in it. You don’t like it. Don’t come to the party. You don’t have to. We’re not dragging you in.

So why do you care so much. Why do you care what other people are doing if it especially if it doesn’t.

In fact you.

Because it directly goes up against their belief system.

Sure.

So if they were a gray person and they’re like you know it’s not really my thing but I really don’t care what people do. That would be a gray person. They’re a very black and white person. And you get let’s say they’re right or it’s wrong. Yes it’s either left or it’s not in between. It’s not one or the other. And so you’ve got this.

You know hard belief system. A strong opposing belief system coming up against yours. It’s going to create a lot of discomfort in you. And so it’s going to create a big reaction.

Would you would you say highly opinionated people. Immovable unshakable people are going to have these types of reactions.

Well I guess it depends I think.

Someone without.

What your opinion is right. Because you could be highly opinionated like us. Let’s say it’s okay and it’s perfectly acceptable behavior for adults to do what they want to do.

But generally you and I are open minded people. There are many things that we don’t like or understand or isn’t for us but we don’t put upon others.

That’s the key. It’s a difference between having an opinion and telling other people what their opinions need to be or how they need to act. I get and I 100 percent of support your right to be offended.

you want us to occupy your brain.

Then fine. Think about us all day and all the naughty stuff we’re doing.

Yes.

Be mad about it.

Be mad about it.

But what I don’t understand is why you could A) come tell me that what I’m doing is wrong. I’m an adult. I get to make my own decisions. Congratulations.

Yay! That’s the beauty of being an adult.

I turned 18 and I get to do what I want. I turned 21 and I get to drink if I want to. You don’t have to drink if you’re 21. But if you are 21 you can. And that’s my right to be able to do that.

I’ll give a lifestyle example.

We don’t enjoy heavy impact play.

Right. We’re just not into that kink.

Doesn’t do anything for us. But I’m not going to ask the manager to ban it.

Right. I’m not going to walk up and I need to speak to the manager please.

You need to stop that.

I do a lot of impersonations.

I know.

Because I don’t think it’s my right to yuck somebody else’s yum. I don’t think it’s my right to say what I believe everybody has to believe. I don’t believe that swinging is for everybody. And I like swinging. I 100% believe that it is not for every individual. True. There are so many people who should just not swing.

Absolutely. Just stop.

Don’t do it.

I mean you’re being a little funny about that. But I understand. Yes it isn’t for everybody. Just as sports aren’t for me.

100%

and I will probably never surf again.

I don’t like any sports. That’s just not my thing. I won’t watch them. I won’t talk about them. I know nothing jack shit about them.

Most sports. The indoor sports you are 100% about.

Ah that’s right. I do know some stuff about cycling and that’s because of you. Yeah.

And maybe some pickleball.

And pickleball. We’re starting to learn about pickleball.

Oh my gosh.

It’s the biggest rage. Although we’re not going to pick up break dancing again. We saw what happened with Australia. That was not good. So we’ve talked about why people shouldn’t do it and kind of what happens. And let’s talk a little bit about what we think kind of is driving all of this. We touched on it a little bit.

Yeah. Another aspect could be what?

it’s jealousy like you said. Wishing they could be there. Wishing that they could have the freedom to express themselves even in their own relationships.

There are a lot of people who participate with swinging who do not actually swap with other couples. They just play on the bed next to other people. They just play in the same room. Why? Because it’s kind of sexy.

It is fun. It’s very sexy. Yeah.

We met a couple from North Carolina in Costa Rica who 100% were not swingers. They were dedicated to each other. They had made the decision that they were not going to play with other people. It’s unfortunate because they were very sexy.

We spent a lot of time talking with them.

We did.

I think we ended up going to a playroom and playing. Next to them. I don’t think we did. We didn’t end up.

We missed it.

We missed an opportunity.

They were leaving just as we were coming in.

But they weren’t offended by it.

No.

They weren’t jealous of it because they were like, “Hey, you guys do your thing. We’ve got our own thing.

We’re able to express how we feel in our relationship. We’re having a great time. Just like being in the sexy atmosphere.

Yeah.

And you know what?

No offenses. We’re naked.

Yep. Yep. They were so cute. I love them. I can see them right now. Their faces. Because we spent a lot of time talking to them.

We did. A lot of time talking with them. It was great.

They were so fun.

I wish. They were supposed to build a naked Airbnb in North Carolina.

That’s right.

I wonder if they ever did that.

I don’t know if they did. I reached out to her about a year ago to see if they’d check up on that. I should check up on that.

North Carolina, here we come.

Because she said we were always welcome.

Although North Carolina, I think, was one of those states where we could be arrested for a lot of milk. Maybe we don’t go. Shit. Although if we’re going with them, then we wouldn’t be committing adultery because they wouldn’t swap with us.

That’s right. Oh, we’re safe.

We’re back on.

It’s just nudism. That’s it. Okay, cool.

As far as I know, being naked in North Carolina is not illegal.

And naked in public? Yeah, I guess. Or outside?

The other one. And I’m gonna go there. Oh boy. And cause problems maybe. I don’t know.

It’s religion. We talked about the Puritans and founding the country on kind of that belief system. Not that the country was founded on Christianity, but that a lot of those kind of religious beliefs came over at that time. There were a whole bunch of different religious beliefs that came over at the same time. But kind of that foundational belief is that there’s this moral code and there’s a set of rules that have to be followed.

And there’s a segment of that population that believes that it is their moral imperative to tell other people to save other people what it comes down to. And they think that it’s their duty to save us from our sins.

That’s great. But I think most people who are adults and who are making adult decisions have already decided what they want to do and don’t necessarily want to be told by other adults what to do and what not to do. I’ll give them an example.

Imagine Satanists coming in and it’s their moral imperative to tell evangelicals how they have to act.

How offended would evangelicals be if the Satanists walk up to them and go, “No, no, you’re not supposed to do that.

You’re supposed to sacrifice the goat.”

Right.

I know. Not the Satanists, the sacrifice goat. Making things up

Yes. A nonsensical example just to prove the point.

I know. This happens all the time.

The atheists and the…

What’s the other one? Agnostics. Agnostics.

We don’t say anything, right? They don’t say anything.

No.

We want

adults to make up their own minds.

And the very religious think that they can just put upon. And sometimes I feel like saying, “You know, if you do it, why can’t I do it?” I had a friend, a coworker one time, say to me, she’s like, “Yeah, when people say, I’ll pray for you.” She goes, “I’ll light a candle for you.”

Like a witch, because she was Wiccan. Oh. So she said, “I’ll light a candle for you.”

Wow. That could be… You can interpret that Roman Catholic.

That’s true. Yes. So they may have not gotten it, but when she described that she was Wiccan, I was like… That’s the inside joke though. Yeah.

But I think that that’s the key difference in why you and I really like the swinging community, because we are open-minded. It doesn’t matter. We do not yuck other people’s yuck. No. We’re not there to tell people that they have to be a size two and have a particular physical appearance or like a particular thing, or you’re not a swinger if you don’t do full swap.

We don’t judge people.

Yeah. There’s a lot of religious beliefs in the lifestyle. And I know a

lot of Mormons who are… Oh, by the way, there’s a TV show coming out this Friday.

There are a lot of religious-minded people who are in the lifestyle. Yeah. Sure.

Absolutely. We met lots of them. Yeah. Very nice people. Sure.

I know.

They’re not forming the opinions that we’re talking about here.

their beliefs upon other people.

It’s kind of silly too. They’re open-minded obviously.

At least about swinging. Yeah. Who knows about anything else?

Yeah.

Which brings me to the last thing before we do our wrap-up, which is this… We’ve been joking a little bit about this, but it’s not really a joking matter. It’s actually really serious. And it’s a big problem in this country where we feel like we have the right to tell other people how to live their lives.

There’s a difference between telling people not to do something for public safety, drinking and driving, for example.

Yeah.

And we don’t wear helmets because the burden on the system, everybody paying for funerals and ambulance services, et cetera, have to pay for somebody who’s maimed themselves and blown themselves all over the freeway. By the way, I ride motorcycles. I’m 100% for helmet laws because I understand what happens. But that’s not what this is about. This isn’t about public safety. This isn’t about protecting your neighbors from something happening. As much as you think children might be involved, unless they’re drilling holes through the walls and peeping in, they’re not going to see anything because it’s not that kind

of party. And children are never at the homes or in the hotel’s rooms. So they wouldn’t even be there to drill the hole. I know. It’s ridiculous.

Just doesn’t happen.

So,

we as a country need to stop telling adults what to do unless it’s a matter of public safety or national security or something. Right? I know. Like setting fireworks off and blowing up your neighbor’s house.

Don’t do it. It’s bad.

But swinging? Nobody’s getting hurt. Except for maybe a little impact play.

What about the STIs? What about the STIs? Oh, okay. Devil’s advocate. Let’s play devil’s advocate. STIs.

Sure.

What if swinging gets out of control, right? Everyone’s doing it. And now the STIs are going up, up, up, up, up, up, up.

If you’re not having sex with swingers, then you’re not going to catch them.

That’s true. So, if you are monogamous and you are staying home and you have the lights off and you’re having sex with your partner, you’re not going to catch an STI from the neighbors across the street. It doesn’t work like that.

Unless you’re also sharing needles with that neighbor. And if you’re doing that, that’s a whole other thing.

Yeah, that’s a whole other thing.

Yeah, the epidemic of STIs.

If potentially, let’s carry that further. Let’s say it does become epidemic and it becomes a burden on the healthcare system. I think that would be a problem, but the problem isn’t swinging. The problem is STIs.

Or the problem is using appropriate protection, which for most STIs, not all, is a condom.

Absolutely.

That is the biggest reducer of it. And getting tested regularly helps you to know whether you are infected with something.

So that you can address that with an antibiotic or whatever is

needed.

or stop playing within the community so you don’t spread it.

Right. Right. Yes. It’s no different than if you were a single person.

Right.

Dating. Absolutely. Yeah. Although, single people shouldn’t be having sex at a web lock, right?

Oh my God. That’s right. That’s just wrong.

Fornicators. Fornicators.

Oh my God. So in conclusion.

Yes.

Let’s wrap this up because this is just a nightmare.

Swinging may not be for everyone, but neither is baseball, knitting, or skydiving.

Wait. Okay, baseball, I agree.

Knitting, yeah, I haven’t mastered that. That’s a huge sausage I have. And I have done skydiving.

You have done skydiving. But you know, there are a lot of people who are not interested in skydiving.

Oh, that’s right. But if you are, the adrenaline rush is real.

There you go.

Yeah.

I don’t know. Maybe. I don’t. Can’t say.

Should anyone be allowed to force their personal choices on other adults? Like I said, barring public safety. This is a question that I’m asking you guys.

What about the choices of consenting to adults in the privacy of their homes? Should adults be able to have vibrators, for example? Which are, by the way, they are trying to ban contraception and vibrators. There were laws in Texas for a long time about ordering vibrators. That’s right. It’s a sense. And you could, you could be breaking the law because you.

Oh my God.

I’m going to say, fucking bought a vibrator. It’s ridiculous.

It’s one thing to have an opinion.

It’s another to inflict your opinion on other people.