With the current political climate taking aim at diversity, equity, and inclusion… Is the swinger lifestyle in the crosshairs? Are decisions being made that will affect our community? In this episode of Swinger University, we sit down with Brett Chamberlain, Executive Director at OPEN—a nonprofit dedicated to advocating for polyamory, ethical non-monogamy, and legal rights for non-monogamous individuals and families.
Brett shares how OPEN is working to end stigma, change laws, and support non-monogamous communities through workplace advocacy, municipal protections, and visibility efforts. Learn about the challenges facing swingers, polyamorous individuals, and other ethically non-monogamous (ENM) people—and how you can get involved to make a difference.
🔹 Key Topics Covered:
✔️ Legal rights and challenges for non-monogamous relationships
✔️ Workplace discrimination & advocacy efforts
✔️ The importance of visibility and cultural acceptance
✔️ How non-monogamous communities can support each other
✔️ Steps to get involved in legislative change
Resources:
Resources: https://www.open-love.org/resources
Discord: https://discord.com/invite/5apvGGp3Qu
Print Materials: https://www.open-love.org/print-materials
Mixers Guide: https://www.open-love.org/mixers-guide
Peer Support: https://www.open-love.org/peer-support
Survey 2024: https://www.open-love.org/blog/open-2024-community-survey-report
Welcome to Swinger University. I’m Ed and
I’m Phoebe. Today we are
speaking with Brett Chamberlain,
the executive director at OPEN, an
organization for polyamory
and ethical non-monogamy.
They’re a non-profit advocacy
organization working to
advance legal rights and cultural
acceptance for non-monogamous families
and individuals. Since
2022, they have been featured
in seven national media stories such as
the New York Times, NPR, and CBC.
Passed two municipal non-discrimination
ordinances in Berkeley
and Oakland, California.
Partnered with Out and Equal, the leading
global LGBTQ plus
workplace advocacy organization.
Partnered also with six Fortune 500
companies using their
resources to advance inclusive
workspace policies. Collected 7,500
responses from the
community on their surveys, support
and serve people with peer support
sessions twice monthly,
and collaborate with over 60
community groups and creators. Welcome
Brett. We are excited
to have you on our show.
Hi Ed and Phoebe. Thank
you so much for having me.
Yeah, glad you could make it.
Very excited to get this interview with
you and really showcase
or bring to light the OPEN,
the organization and just all the great
work and programs that
you have available. So
once again, excited you’re here.
Thank you.
So let’s start with this one. Here’s a
slow pitch. How did you
get involved with OPEN?
So I’ve been doing advocacy and activism
for really my whole life. I
started out doing anti-war
and anti-recruitment work in my home
state of New Hampshire
as a high school student,
kind of coming of political consciousness
during the early Bush years
and the war on terrorism to
date myself just a little bit. It was at
the front lines of Occupy
Wall Street as a college
student and after graduating from college
founded my first
non-profit in environmental
advocacy organization working on waste on
college campuses. And it was
for a job in the environmental
non-profit sector that brought me out to
the Bay Area in 2016. And
quite quickly I found myself
becoming really immersed in the Bay Area
sex-positive and polyamorous communities.
And I found it really
impactful, very personally
transformative. It gave me access to
these really wonderful, supportive,
vulnerable, liberated communities. It
gave me access to new
school skills and tools and
vocabularies to pursue the relationships
that were fulfilling for me. But in
immersing in these spaces,
I learned a couple things that really
surprised me. And the first was just how
widespread non-monogamy
actually was. One in five American adults
will be in a non-monogamous
relationship at some point in
their life and about one in 20 describe
their current relationship as
non-monogamous. And this
of course includes the whole range of
non-monogamous identities and
experiences from polyamory to
relationship anarchy to the swinger
lifestyle and many, many, many, many more
terms and labels that
people use beyond those. The next thing I
learned that was really
surprising to me was just how
marginalized of an identity this really
was. That even in quite progressive
places like the Bay Area,
my friends and my peers were afraid of
being open about their
identity or their relationships or
their family in the workplace because of
the stigma and the
pushback that that can lead to.
And so it seemed that there was an
opportunity for more advocacy in this
space to push not only for
acceptance, to end this stigma, to end
the marginalization, but
critically to push for greater
rights, to dismantle the systemic
barriers that marginalized
non-monogamous families and
relationships, and to ensure that people
had access to the full
rights and privileges and
protections that we grant to various
other identities and
family structures. So I decided
to take the dump. I quit my job and
started putting the pieces together for
OPEN in the beginning of
- We publicly launched the
organization that spring, so we are
approaching in just about six
weeks our three-year anniversary. And
it’s been a really exciting ride since
then. This is a really
rapidly growing space, movement space,
that I think has
reached this critical mass and
it’s really wonderful to see folks
stepping into their political power
and really claiming our seat at the table
and our voice in the conversation.
Very nice, very nice. And do you feel
comfortable sharing your
relationship preference?
Yeah, you know, I’ve started identifying
just as non-monogamous generically. You
know, as I mentioned
there, I kind of came out of the somewhat
more polyamory oriented Bay
Area scene. And, you know,
previous times had identified as
polyamorous. But
interestingly, when I was recording with
Dan and Lacey from the Swing Nation
podcast, if you don’t mind me
mentioning another podcast by
name on your, pardon me if that’s bad
form. I was describing my relationship
structure and at the
time I had, you know, one partner and we
would, you know,
sometimes play with other folks at
parties and whatnot. And they said to me,
you know, that kind of
sounds like the lifestyle.
And, you know, I think there is an
interesting point there that
these labels are all kind of
squishy and bleed into one another.
Right. So, yeah, I think that labels are
important for helping
us understand ourselves and our
experiences. But
ultimately, I think that non-monogamy
as the umbrella term is the most
expansive, it’s the most
flexible. And I’ll let you
add a little secret as an organizer in
this space. It’s also very politically
prudent for me to not
pick a side as it were. Right. Yeah,
that’s a really good
point. And we’ve struggled a lot
with labels in terms of depending on who
you’re talking to or where
they are in their journey,
how progressive they are in terms of
there was a term floated
around when we first got started,
which was progressive swinging, which was
sort of poly, but sort of
swinging. And it’s one of those
things where it’s like people are kind of
creating their own
terminology just to be able to describe
their one particular unique slice of this
spectrum. You know,
there’s so many different ways
that people are ethically non-monogamous.
And you can’t really put a
single label on some of the
things that people do because it’s it
depends on the weekend, right?
They could change from here to
there. So which label do you stick with?
So yeah, it’s it’s good. I
even find it interesting that we
we feel the need to put the word ethical
in front of it because
there’s already a judgment, a stigma
on non-monogamy. Why can’t non-monogamy
just be fine? Like why does it have to be
labeled with something? Why does it have
to have another descriptor to go,
oh, well, it’s ethical. We’re being
ethical about it. We’re not cheating.
Right. And I get it, but at
the same time, it’s kind of like using
the negative to have to
define what we’re doing,
which we tend to think of as very
positive. But yeah, right. And if I was
to name the organization
again tomorrow, I think we would go with
a different name. Of
course, it’s a very punchy
little acronym. But increasingly, we’re
just using open in part
because the full name of the
organization is it’s a mouthful, but also
because of some reasonable
concerns around the ethical
label that you just raised. There are
already multiple words for
non-consensual, non-monogamy.
We call it cheating. We call it
infidelity. And so increasingly, we’re
just using the label
non-monogamy, which really captures the
whole range of practices
within it. Yeah. Yeah. That’s
great. I like it. What are some of the
programs and services that
you offer for people who are
listening? So let me start with our
theory of change, which is
really just activist speech for
how we’re actually going to go about
doing what it is that
we say we’re going to do.
Right. So our mission is to advance
rights and acceptance for
non-monogamous people. How do we
do that? So it’s a threefold approach.
And I’m starting with this
because our programs then kind
of fall into these buckets. Yeah, it
makes sense. So the first is supporting
non-monogamous communities
and relationships. Right. The idea is
that if people aren’t experiencing
positive outcomes in
their own lives, in their own experience
of non-monogamy, it’s
really hard for them to then show
up for the broader advocacy activities
that we want to invite
people in towards. So some of our
programs in this area include things like
our free twice monthly peer support
sessions that provide
a safe and inclusive space for people to
come together, connect with other
non-monogamous folks,
share what’s going on in their life, get
advice, and so on. We’ve also
published a range of resources
that aim to help people navigate various
systemic barriers or
important life events,
processes, and moments in our lives that
aren’t typically designed
with our types of families and
relationships in mind. So this include
things like our end of life
planning and death care guide.
Right. This is like a really important
and very difficult conversation. Like
everybody in a family
and partnership needs to have at some
point. But again, these
industries are designed with
normative family models in mind. So we’ve
created a resource to help people
navigate that. That’s
just one example. We’ve got a few others
that folks can find on
our website, open-love.org
resources. So that’s supporting the
non-monogamous community. The next area
of our work is invisibility.
Like the ideas of people are experiencing
positive outcomes, then they feel more
proud, more ready to be visible about
their identity. Some of
the programs in this area
include the annual week of visibility for
non-monogamy. That’ll
be in July of this year.
We’ll be sending out a save the date
soon. And that’s an annual global
celebration where we
encourage people just to show up and come
together in community,
connect with other non-monogamous
people where they live, but also have
conversations with their neighbors that
may not be as familiar
with the identities and values of the
non-monogamous communities that are
interwoven with, of course,
every other community. We’ve also done
our annual community survey. We’ve run
this for three years
in 2024. We collected 4,500 responses
from 70 countries, making
that the largest survey of
non-monogamous people published to date.
And this really helps us get
a grasp on the identities and
the experiences of the communities we
serve really across the world. And
critically, this data
not only helps steer our work, but it
also helps to substantiate
some of our advocacy work and
finally shape the conversation around
non-monogamy. So that data set gets used
by academic researchers,
by presenters, at conferences, by
journalists in their coverage of
non-monogamy, and so on.
So the final piece of our work is the
advocacy work, right? And
this is kind of where the rubber
meets the road. This is really actually
passing laws, changing
systems. Our two major program areas
in the advocacy sphere are our Open
Workplaces Initiative. This is a
workplace advocacy program
that helps non-monogamous professionals
safely open up about their
identity at work, but also
push for more inclusive policies in the
workplace. So anti-discrimination and
anti-harassment language
in your hiring guidelines and in your
employee handbook and so
on. And the other side of our
advocacy work is the legislative
advocacy. And this is
focused on passing municipal-level
non-discrimination protections. So those
bar discrimination on
the basis of family or
relationship structure. As you mentioned
in the intro, we helped get
those passed in Berkeley and
Oakland in California last year. And that
follows the lead set by
Cambridge and Somerville,
Massachusetts in 2023. And we’re really
thrilled to be scaling
up that effort in 2025.
We’re working with grassroots leaders in
Seattle, in San Francisco,
in Portland, in Santa Jose,
and a range more cities. We’ve just
published a comprehensive
legislative advocacy toolkit,
collaboratively with a number of other
organizations that really walked people
through that entire process, top to
bottom. Everything you
need to know to pass local
productions where you live. So we’re
really hoping that that
resource can help people
bring this effort to home, to their
community. And we can expand the coverage
of these productions
from two cities in 2023, reaching four
cities in 2024, to hopefully far more
cities this year and
in the years to come. Excellent. Oh, I
was thinking of Colorado.
Colorado might be good too.
Boulder’s on our list. Yeah.
Boulder, I think.
Nice. Nice.
Would be a good place to start.
Yeah, there’s a pretty large swing
community there. So yeah, very cool.
And Boulder’s very progressive in college
town and that would be
fun. Oh, I’m very excited. I’m
very, very excited for the direction your
company’s going and
organization is going. And
we have more questions. Let’s see.
Let’s see. How is open changing the
public perception in
regard to ad campaigns and media
and how can people help?
Yeah. Visibility and acceptance is really
essential when it
comes to, or I should say
visibility is essential when it comes to
promoting acceptance. People
are far more likely to accept
somebody with an out-group identity, such
as participation in
non-monogamy, if they actually
directly know somebody who’s
non-monogamous. So if your coworker or
your friend or family member
or a member of your church congregation
is non-monogamous, it
really helps you humanize that
practice and realize that they’re not out
to steal your spouse. So we
really do encourage people to
be open about their identity if it’s safe
for them to do so. Now,
it’s really important to put a
caveat here that not everyone can be open
about their identity,
particularly if you hold other
marginalized identities. Discrimination
and marginalization can
compound as you have more
and more identities. So for folks for
whom it is safe to do so, we do really
encourage you to think
about having that conversation with your
friend, with your coworker, with your
siblings, your family
members, because every person that is
open about their identity that
helps chip away at that stigma
and the misconceptions makes it safer for
other people to be
open about their identity.
So to help people do this, we’ve, you
know, this really cuts across a lot of
our work, right? So,
as I mentioned, in our Open Workplaces
toolkit, we provide tips for
how to open up safely in the
workplace. We do social media education
where we tackle myths
about non-monogamy, some of the
really persistent and frustrating myths
just keep seeming to come up.
We put out research like our
community survey. We organized the Global
Week of Visibility for
Non-Monogamy that had participants
in, I think, five countries this past
year with dozens and dozens of
in-person and virtual events.
And finally, we worked to get our story
out into the media. It’s
really important that we be reaching
not just other non-monogamous people, but
the general public in
order to really actively push
back against some of those myths and
misconceptions and portray, present a
more authentic portrayal of
non-monogamy. Yeah, that’s great. You
make a really good
point. It’s one thing to see
a TikTok post or something from an
influencer, if you will, and something
completely different
when you hear a personal story and you
know that person. I
can think of examples of
a lot of people in the LGBTQ community
who have friends and family
who support that community
and become advocates for that community
because it’s like their
brother or their sister or their
their child. But anybody who doesn’t have
a close personal relationship with that,
they don’t have that understanding. They
don’t have that recognition
that we’re all people. We all
deserve our own set of rights that every
other person is entitled to. So,
discrimination in any
factor is not a good thing. I’d never
really thought about
identities being compounded.
When you were saying that, is that where
maybe you’re open about
being lesbian or gay and
“Oh, by the way, I’m also
non-monogamous.” Is that where you’re
saying where those identities start
to compound and then that can have some
challenges for individuals in their
community or with their
family circle? Is that what we were
saying with that statement?
Yeah, particularly folks that have other
marginalized
identities are less likely to
have the types of class privilege that
might insulate them from
the implications of being
fired from their job. There might be
existing biases that can
intersect with this sense of
with the biases around non-monogamy. So,
some ethnic identities or queer
identities tend to be
more sexualized and that can reinforce
perceptions of non-monogamy that it’s
just about sex or that
these people are out to steal your
partner. So, those are just examples of
these ways that these
different intersecting identities or
marginalized identities can come into
conversation with one
another or amplify one another by
reinforcing existing
stereotypes about those different
identities. Interesting. I never knew
that or thought about that.
We’re at a disadvantage for thinking
about other people’s shoes because we
live in our own shoes
right? I know. We are Caucasian and
middle class and a lot of other things
that kind of give us
certain privileges that we don’t realize
on a daily basis until you
start talking about people,
talking to people who do not have those
privileges. And yeah,
I think it’s great that
de-stigmatizing any of these things helps
to kind of reduce that
compound issue. And so,
all of us kind of working together to
help take that noise down, I
think will be really good for
the community in general. Yeah, let me
add two more pieces on this. Just, and
sorry, do you want to go
ahead? Yeah, it’s because I think this is
a really important topic.
First of all, this points to the
importance of that storytelling, of that
visibility, right? Like I know that I’ve
learned a lot because
as I described earlier, like I had my own
experience with
non-monogamy, but it’s in a
pretty progressive area. I’m also a
cisgendered white man who has
enjoyed a considerable degree
of privilege as a result of those
privileged identities. And
it’s really important for me
to be in conversation and for all of us
to be in conversation with
folks who have had different
experiences because, for example, if not
for having had those
conversations, I might be saying,
everybody needs to be open about their
non-monogamous identity. And that can
actually be harmful. It can
put people at risk if we don’t really
acknowledge and understand that different
people have different
ways of showing up. The other really
important point to all this
is that this work has to go
both ways, by which I mean not only do we
as non-monogamous people
have to be showing up in a way
that acknowledges different identities,
intersections with non-monogamy, we also
as a movement have to
show up in ways that work to address the
marginalization that
other people experience on the
basis of those identities. So I can
illustrate this, I think, a little bit
better with a point.
We did a panel discussion on identity and
inclusion in the
non-monogamous communities.
And one of the speakers, who’s the
president of Opens
Board, William Winters,
leads a Bay Area sex-positive and
polyamorous community
called Bonobos. And William has a
background himself in social justice and
racial justice organizing.
And he was discussing how to
make your non-monogamous community or
your events, your sex-positive events,
more inclusive on the
basis of race. And he certainly provided
some suggestions that you
can take into consideration
to do that. But he also made the point
that you’re not going to solve
racism in your non-monogamous
community because racism exists out there
everywhere. We live in a
society with generational
systemic inequalities and systemic
racism. And so if we want
to have safe and inclusive
non-monogamous communities and
sex-positive events on the
basis of race, we can’t just fix
it ourselves here. We have to go out
there. So this is why I
think it’s really important that
as non-monogamous people and as a
non-monogamous movement, we also show up
for intersecting and
overlapping movements, for social
justice, for racial
justice, for economic justice,
and environmental justice, and so on.
Yeah, I mean, the easiest way
for me to think about that is
all the underdogs need to stick together.
We’re all fighting similar
problems. We’re all fighting
for, in a sense, our seat in society and
to be normalized. So it
makes sense. It’s interesting
that we’re talking about this. We just
did an interview recently
with Alex Liu for a documentary
that he produced called “A Sexplanation.”
And largely the
documentary was about sex education
in the United States and the lack of the
utter just disparity that
we have of educating people
in terms of just basic, procreative,
recreational sex. Like, sex has a whole
bunch of different uses
in the world. And it was interesting
because we also touched on the LGBTQ
community because he
happens to be gay. And so we talked about
coming out and being open
and all of those things that
he had to struggle with in that
particular facet of his life. And we’d
gotten some comments about,
like, “Why are you bringing the gay thing
in?” Oh, yeah. On the
video. And we were like, “Well,
because, hey, there are bisexual people
who are swingers. There are lesbian and
gay men who are in the lifestyle.” And
I’m sure that that happens
in polyamory as well, although
we don’t know any personally, but I can’t
imagine that there is not some Venn
diagram where all of
those things intersect at some level. So
100% agree. We’ve all got
to talk about this. We’re
all in this together. And there’s a ton
of overlap between all of these different communities,
if nothing more than just being
marginalized and being
pushed out by the “normal people.”
Right. Yeah. It’s all about confronting
normative models and the
hierarchies that uphold those
normative models. And whether that
normative model that you’re
addressing is whiteness or
heteronormativity or mononormativity, we
are confronting the
same, if not the same,
systems or structures directly, then
certainly the same meta
structures of inequality and of
marginalization. Yeah. Yeah, for sure.
Now, I know you talked about
the peer support group that
occurs twice weekly. Is that correct?
Twice monthly. It’s on
the second and third Tuesday
of each month. That’s on your website,
and is it free for people
or is there a small fee? How
does that work? Totally free to attend.
We do gratefully accept folks’
contributions. Of course,
these programs all take money to run and
open being a nonprofit.
We’re not getting major
philanthropic funding. We’re not getting
any philanthropic or any
significant philanthropic
funding because legacy foundations are
certainly not really
paying attention to this issue.
We’re not getting corporate sponsorship.
We totally depend on our
community to support our work.
So folks can register for the peer
support sessions at
open-love.org slash peer-support.
And we’re really proud to be able to
offer those for free.
Conventional kind of talk therapy is
prohibitively expensive for most people.
Health insurance, if you’re
lucky enough to be able to
afford that, typically doesn’t cover it.
And there are many
fantastic non-monogamous
facilitators who do offer excellent peer
support or partner support or coaching,
often though those do come at a cost as
well. So we’re really
thrilled to be able to offer
this program free and accessible. That’s
fantastic. I love that. I’ve
found a lot of value in these
virtual, any virtual event that brings
together the community that
we’re in, the non-monogamy
community. It’s so nice to just feel like
you’re not alone. And a lot
of times people, they don’t
have anybody to talk to. There’s no one
in their family unit or
friends that they know of that they
can talk to. And so it can be very
isolating. There’s also a
Discord channel that you have.
Is that still going? Absolutely. I think
we have about 700, coming on
800 members in our community
Discord. Folks can find the link to our
Discord and to all of our social media
pages at open-love.org
slash hello. Open-love.org slash hello.
And in a Discord, we’ve got folks from
all around the world
having great conversations, offering
advice, talking about great
non-monogamous books. But we
also have organizing channels. We’re
really hoping to grow a little bit more
this year to provide a
space for folks to collaborate around
their work as community
leaders or event organizers or
advocates for some of the interventions
we’ve been talking about today. So we’d
love to welcome folks
into our Discord. We’ve got folks from,
as I say, all around the
world and a whole range of
non-monogamous practices, polyamory, the
lifestyle, relationship
anarchy, and many more.
That’s great. Go ahead. No. Wait, what is
relationship anarchy?
So there are many folks that can give a
better definition than I can.
Relationship anarchy is
the idea that people should have the
freedom to construct every
one of their relationships
according to the needs and desires and
capacities of the people in that
relationship without regard
for prescribed forms or models of what a
relationship is or should
look like in any of the domains.
So folks will often refer to this tool.
That’s actually a great tool
for folks in any relationship
structure called the Relationship
Schmorgasbord, which lays out various
different dimensions of
relationship from emotional support to
co-parenting to financial entanglement to
emotional intimacy, physical intimacy,
kink, so on and so
forth. And through this tool,
the Schmorgasbord people can go through
collaboratively with
a partner or partners
and talk about how they’d like to show up
or what they’re not
available for in each domain of that
relationship. And one of the things that
I think is a really great
takeaway from relationship
anarchy that again, I think is applicable
for everyone is that
every relationship we are in
in our lives is a relationship, right?
Like relationships, kind
of two words at once. We
use it to mean romantic relationship, but
like I’m in a
relationship with my friends, with my
roommates, with my siblings, just
different types of relationships, but all
of them can still involve
a design for like what types of support
do we want to provide? So I can have a
conversation with my
roommates about, hey, to what extent are
you available for
emotional support, for example,
or even, you know, non-sexual physical
intimacy? Do we feel comfortable cuddling
while we watch a movie,
even if, you know, again, we’re
roommates. So I think that
there’s a lot of really great
learnings and wisdoms that come from the
relationship anarchy kind of theory.
Yeah. And I like the idea of, in a sense,
anarchy just being the
non-conformist nature of
build your own relationship. You know,
you construct it however
you want and don’t feel
compelled to have to fit the, once again,
that cookie cutter
definition of what that means.
I can imagine it requires a little bit
more creative
conversation. And that it sounds like
that tool would be really good to be able
to describe what that
relationship is. And a lot
of times we’ll give it advice to other
swingers when they go,
well, we’ve got this kind of
interesting relationship. Does this ever
happen? And it’s like,
well, sure, you’ll want to do it
that way. So it does exist. You just need
to have a conversation with your
potential partners to see
if, Hey, are you on board for this? One
of the relationships was the
woman is interested in full
swap, but the man is only interested in
oral. And it’s like, great.
Try and put that into a cookie
cutter definition. It’s a little, you
know, it’s an odd looking
cookie. We’ll just call it that.
It doesn’t look like a traditional cookie
that everybody else
can point to and go that,
but that’s perfectly valid for that
couple. And that’s
what they like to do. So
they just need to present that and say,
Hey, this is what we want.
But sometimes it’s hard to have the, or
challenging because you,
those are those instances where you want
to look for a label to just
go, I’m blocked, right? And
not have five sentences about it in a
social setting where it’s
loud and no one can understand
you. Right. Right. So they were like
looking for a definition. And
I’m like, Oh, I don’t think,
I don’t think there is one. Yeah. And I’m
like, it’s that elevator
pitch, right? Like it’s hard
to come up with an elevator pitch,
something that you can say in
like one or two sentences that,
that just describes what you want. But
you know that something to work on.
The other, the other couple that reached,
uh, the quad that reached out to us,
is they, they started, um, they opened up
their relationship. They
immediately fell in love with
another couple and they’ve just been a
quad ever since. And, but now the
opposite partners are
wanting to, to go out and experience
other partners, not, not,
not bring them back as a quad,
but more on a swinging, uh, type of, of
relationship. And so now there’s this
consensus between all four
and how they feel about it. And so they
reached out and said, is
this normal? And we’re like,
it’s normal for you.
Is it, it is for you. Thank you. That’s
what you want to do. And
that’s how you, you know, you,
that’s what interests you. Then it sounds
like you, you guys
already have the, that great
communication. I, I said, you, you’ve
been doing this for years. You clearly
have your communication
down. It’s what’s working is, is great.
You know, just continue with that and
have fun and report back.
But, you know, those are the things that
are people are like, they know they’re
doing it differently,
but they don’t really, they’re not
finding other people to relate
to, to go, how do we navigate
this? How do we do this new thing? Yeah.
I mean, I think that the key
takeaway point here is that,
you know, we’ve been told for the longest
time that there is one
right way to do relationships,
right? It’s the monogamous relationship.
And what we’re
advocating for is that there are,
there are more right ways or acceptable
ways to do relationships.
But let’s say that, you know,
we say, okay, monogamy is a right way.
And also the lifestyle is a right way.
Well, now you’ve given
people twice as many options, but they
are still constrained, right? If
lifestyle only means one
thing, if it only looks like one thing,
well, people still don’t really have the
freedom to pursue the
relationships that are right for them
that may fall outside of
those boxes. And again, I think
that’s a great takeaway from relationship
anarchy, but I think an
essential kind of theoretical
underpinning for this advocacy work as a
whole, is that it’s not just about
elevating non-monogamous
relationships to stand alongside
monogamous romantic
relationships at the top of the
relationships you’re at the stack, right?
It’s the ultimate, most
desirable, most important form
of relationship. But rather, it’s about
saying all relationships
are fundamental to the human
experience and are worthy of respect and
are worthy of, you know, care and
compassion and effort and
intention among the people that are part
of them and also respect
among the people that are around
them. Right. And at the same time,
though, as you do correctly,
I observed earlier, and like,
labels are helpful, having a pithy
elevator pitch is
helpful. So yeah, yeah, yeah.
Acknowledge that it goes both ways. Yeah,
it’s always, it’s always
fun. It’s a, it’s a good
challenge, though, because I think trying
to come up with the elevator
pitch or the way to describe
your relationship communicates that you
have, you’re taking the
effort to try and describe your
relationship to other people. And I think
that that’s great. And I
think if you have to have a
conversation about it, there are worse
things to have conversations
about, you know, it’s, it’s
great. Like talk about it. Yeah, exactly.
How is open supporting
people impacted by legal issues?
So getting past kind of the social, you
know, normalization of all of these
various combinations
of human beings. There’s, there’s some
stuff going on in terms of legal
implications. I mean, even
leases, I’ve, and health insurance with
different standards for
domestic partnerships versus
married partnerships, right? Like there’s
all kinds of slippery stuff
going on. How is open helping
with all that? You know, not as much as I
wish we were able to. There
are a range of issues at play
there that you just touched on everything
from health insurance to
child custody, which can be
incredibly intense and high stakes and
very heightened legal
area. What more, what’s more,
we of course have a federal system where
there are 50 different legal frameworks
in different states.
A lot of this is regulated or governed at
the state level. So it can
vary quite a bit how folks
need to address these challenges at the
state level. We’re still, I
would say in quite the early
stages of our efforts to provide people
with more direct support in
this area. Much of what we’re
doing at this stage is just through
education. So I spoke earlier of our
educational resources.
An example of a resource that we are
currently developing is
around housing. This includes
things like co-buying a house as a
multi-partner arrangement,
moving in if you’re, let’s say,
a third member of a triad or perhaps two
couples decide to move in
together. And now you’re in a
situation where two of them are
technically the owners of the landlords
and the other two are
technically their tenants, but also their
partners or their swing partners. So
those are examples of
the types of educational resources that
we’re hoping to put out. Looking ahead
into the longer run,
for minority identities like this,
typically there’s a dual
approach. Actually, really a
trifecta approach. You’ve got the
cultural approach, then you’ve got the
legislative approach,
and then you finally have a judicial
approach. That is what we saw
with gay marriage, to choose
an obviously relevant example, where you
had in some states it
was being legalized through
judiciary. You had a legal case and a
judge was saying, “Indeed, this is
discriminatory,” and
overturning a law restricting marriage to
partners of an opposite
gender. Whereas in other cases,
you had it going through the legislature,
the state legislature
passing a bill. But those judicial
cases, those all depend on having
lawyers. Lawyers are expensive. And you
also want to ensure that
you’re doing it in a coordinated fashion,
because what you don’t want
to do is move forward with
the case and have the judge say, “Yeah,
actually this discriminatory law is
totally fine,” and then
you’ve established even more precedent
reinforcing that law and makes it harder
to overturn down the
line. So in the future, I do think that
the Nominogamy community will
have access to greater legal
support and legal resources such that we
as a movement, and I
use the royal “we” there,
although I do hope that Open will
continue to have a role to
play in that, are able to
deliver legal services, direct legal
services and legal support to
people that are going through
these issues. And that we’re also able to
provide greater legal education. So
lawyers, through their
professional accreditation or their law
school, should be aware of Nominogamy.
They should be aware
of the issues impacting such that if a
lawyer is dealing with a
custody dispute, wherein somebody’s
participation in the lifestyle, for
example, is a factor that’s being raised
in order to deny them
custody of their child, that lawyer is
not being caught totally
off guard and can know how to
respond to that. This takes time. This
takes money. This takes no
how. But I think that we will
get there. In the meantime, I do want to
highlight a couple
organizations that are doing great work
in this space. One is Chosen Family Law
Center. They practice in New
York and New Jersey. And the
other is Chosen Family Law Texas. I
should note there that both are
organizations that we collaborate
with. Stacy McClarty, the attorney from
Chosen Family Law Texas,
sits on the Open’s board. And
of course, lawyers are typically barred
to practice in a particular state. So I
know that only covers
New York, New Jersey and Texas. There are
many other lawyers out
there and certainly Open or
those providers can help refer folks to
other inclusive and accepting lawyers.
Another resource that support with that
is the Kink and Poly
Aware Professionals Directory,
maintained by the National Coalition for
Sexual Freedom. And this
includes lawyers and therapists
and so on that self-identify as being
Kink and Poly and lifestyle
aware and ready to advocate
for clients that hold those identities or
practices. Very good. Yeah. I could see
the legal complexity with all of this.
The law works very well to
find something that is legal
versus illegal. And because it’s very
clear cut. If you do this,
this happens. But we just talked
about this massive slippery slope of
definitions of things. So I can imagine
trying to codify that
into a law book with very clear
boundaries gets tricky. And maybe it’s a
matter of just having
better definitions of what these things
are or grouping things
together and just say humans can
do things. And maybe we should stop being
so particular about which
humans can do what things.
But yeah, I could see that. And I’ll
throw this out. Any of our listeners or
people who are watching
this, who are lawyers, who are interested
in contributing to
Open’s cause and the cause of
helping this whole thing get resolved
legally, please reach out.
We’d love to put you in touch
or you can contact them directly. We
definitely know there’s lots
of nurses and doctors and law
enforcement who are in the lifestyle. We
run across them all the
time. But I’m sure because
we’re a cross section of society in
general that there are lawyers out there
who might want to help.
Yeah, I’d love to hear from folks. And I
do, I’m sorry, I keep
stepping on you there. I just,
I’ve got, I love talking about this
stuff, but I do want to just want to
double click on one point
you made, Ed. And that is that, you know,
in some regard, the law is
black and white, right? Like,
it’s written in this very elaborate, very
concrete language. And yet that still
leaves a lot of room
for ambiguity. So for example, in custody
cases, the standard at
play is what’s called the best
interest of the child. And that’s up to
the judge to determine that. And so if
the judge has negative
preconceptions about folks in the
lifestyle, and thinks that it’s going to
be dangerous for the kid
to be around, and there’s always going to
be people coming over, then
they can deny custody of a child
to somebody who participates in the
lifestyle. Another example are anti
adultery laws. So there
are 16 states in the US that still have
anti adultery laws on the books. It’s a
felony in three of them.
So if you’re legally married and
participating in the
lifestyle, you are violent in the law.
Now those laws persist, even though there
was a US Supreme Court
case called Lawrence v. Texas,
that very long story short, said the
government can’t legislate
what you do in your bedroom.
And so these laws are, you know, on their
face unconstitutional,
but just like remain on the
books as kind of zombie laws. And
particularly in this
political era, like who knows how safe
Lawrence v. Texas is like anything seems
like it could be
overturned, and all of a sudden,
these laws become relevant again. So yes,
you know, in some regard,
the law is black and white,
to the extent that like it is written in
quite specific words. And
yet there is a lot of room
for interpretation and ambiguity and gray
areas within that. Yes.
Yeah. And I think it’s in
particular, especially with laws, it’s
it’s in how it is written that that
ambiguity kind of favors
flexibility in certain areas. Totally
unrelated case, for example, in
California, it is it is not
illegal to split lanes or to share lanes.
So if you ride a motorcycle,
you can ride between lanes.
And that’s just because the law doesn’t
say it is illegal to do
that. So there’s there’s a hole,
basically. So we just need to create the
right holes in the law so
that we can all live together
in harmony. I want to talk about the
survey that you put out every year and
how people can be part
of that to to provide data. When when
does the new survey come out?
And then I also wanted to talk
about any surprising statistics that you
found with your last survey results.
Yeah, our community survey, we’ve
typically run in the spring this year,
we’re going to be pushing
it back to the end of year so that it
conflicts a little bit less with our
organizing around the
week of visibility and also so that we
can kind of hook it on to
the like end of year, you know,
Spotify wrapped news cycle and hopefully
get a little bit more or
media coverage over it.
So folks are eager to to take the survey,
we’d really welcome their
participation. The best way
to make sure that you get it is by
following us on social media or joining
our email list. You can
do that again via open-love.org slash
hello. We do quite a bit of
outreach to folks across the
Naminagami space to ask them to signal
boost it. So you’ll be
hearing from us in a couple months
there. I’d love for you to share it then
as well. Excellent. A couple
things that stand out. First,
I want to note too, I would love to get
more responses from
folks in the lifestyle. Our
2024 survey had 6.1% of people who
identified as lifestyle or
swinger. About half of respondents
identified as polyamorous. So it does
skew a little bit more
polyamorous. I’d love to get
more lifestyle representation there. A
couple of things that
surprised me. First of all,
most people are not fully open about
their identity in most
areas of their life. So with
the exception of with close friends,
people are not typically
open at work or with their
extended friends or in their online or
social media identity. I
know that that may be more
relevant for folks that hold polyamorous
identities that are in
the lifestyle. I think
very understandably for folks in the
lifestyle, because it’s
not necessarily an ongoing
partnership or relationship in the way
that it might be for
a polyamorous person,
there’s less of a desire or need to be
able to explain that
you’re spending the weekend with
your other boyfriend and his family. Even
so though, I think that
people don’t want to be
afraid of having it found out that they
went to a swinger cruise or
lifestyle cruise and worry
about losing their job. So there is still
opportunity and really
a need for acceptance
and create a little bit more space for
people to be open. Because
even if you don’t want to
practically share, you also shouldn’t
need to worry about being
outed. So those are kind of
corollaries. Yeah, I can see how being
polyamorous would be more
easily socially acceptable,
because you are in a relationship with
additional people. There’s
love there, there’s shared
responsibilities. And I can see the
general population going,
“Oh, okay. Well, you just love
more than one person. That’s fine.” But
then when you think about
swingers, the first thing that
comes to everyone’s mind is, “Oh, you
just want to have sex with
everything that walks by.” No,
no, no, that’s not it. But so it’s that
educating and reframing of
people’s minds and trying to
define it. But yet in that definition,
even the swinger community,
as we talked about earlier,
is very diverse. It is still its own
umbrella, but it is very
diverse in what people want.
Some people only want a one night stand,
if you will, that’s no
different than if you’re
in the dating world and you go to a bar.
Some people really want
that friendship, that close
connection, a relationship with people.
They want to travel with
them. They don’t want to be
polyamorous, but they want good, solid
heartfelt friendships. So it’s
interesting and different.
I can see how it’s more challenging for a
swinger to just come out
and say, “Yeah, I went to
a swinger cruise or a
swinger resort or a swinger party.”
Yeah, and I get the relationship and a
poly relationship is very
apparent to people because
you have this intersected family, this
extended, this
non-nuclear family that’s created.
It’s harder to hide that, much like being
gay. You have a same sex
partner. It’s obvious that
you’re holding hands with this person.
You can’t hide it. You’ve got three
people who are living
at the same address. Are they the
roommate? It’s out there.
There’s a much more visible sign,
but you’re right. I think that there’s a
little bit of a kink to
swinging from the standpoint of
“Tee hee hee, we’re doing something
that’s secret and we’re
getting away with something.”
There is a little bit of that novelty to
it that I get why there
are probably people in
the swinger community who are like,
“Well, yeah, don’t take that away from
me. That’s the fun part.”
I get it. Yeah, I completely get that
too. Also, there are people
that don’t want to have to
worry about it. I’ve spoken with somebody
who works for a major
series of lifestyle clubs that
folks have heard of, you’ve probably been
to. She accidentally one
day wrote to her kid’s school,
telling them how I’m going to be able to
pick them up or something
from her work email address
and had job protective services show up
at her door the next day.
So it’s like, listen, if you want to be,
if you think it’s kinky to be secret
about your identity,
no one’s going to take that away from
you. No one’s saying you
have to label yourself as a
swinger. You must declare your swinger
relationship. You can
still keep it secret,
but the visibility means that for the
people that don’t want to keep
it secret or just slip up and
it comes out, you shouldn’t have to worry
about losing their kids. Oh, yes. 100%.
I went through a divorce and one of the
first things that I was
concerned about was because I
was looking for full custody, was if this
comes out, it’s bad enough.
I’m already a man who wants
full custody of his children. That’s
already difficult in many
states, but then you start to
compound it with like, well, he’s a
swinger. So clearly there’s, it’s not a
stable home environment.
So yeah, I can absolutely see that. And
we absolutely had the
conversation before our
faces came out on our podcasts on
YouTube. We were like, is there a
morality clause in our
employment? Do we have to worry about
this stuff? Like what, what
does this mean? What are the
potential fallout for all of this stuff?
And so yeah, we’ve had
that conversation a number of
times. And so far we’ve been okay. Yeah.
Yeah. I’m glad that’s the
case for you. It’s interesting.
Your experience calls to mind is this
phenomenon called minority
stress, which is really just like
sociologists speak for the stress that
somebody experiences when
they hold an outgroup identity,
particularly one that they feel the need
to conceal. So as you
just shared, like I’m sure
that that consideration, that calculus
and even the persistent
risk that I’m still has never
completely gone is a source of some
anxiety for you. And in
fact, studies have shown that non
monogamous people actually do have higher
rates of anxiety and
depression. And it’s theorized to
be because of the fear that job
protective services is going
to call up. I’m going to lose
custody of my kids. I’m going to get
fired from my HR job. I’m
going to get, or I’m going to get
fired from my job or called into HR.
Right. So on and so forth. Right.
Yeah. Feeling a little stressed there,
Ed. I know. Thank you for
acknowledging my stress.
So we touched on a little bit in terms of
how people can help, but I
want to ask it again. And
that is what are some of the ways that
people can help your
program? And then we’ve got one more
topic that we want to talk about because
we’ve kind of, we’ve danced
around it a little bit and
we tend not to touch this topic, but
we’re going to touch it today. Oh, so
stay, stay tuned for that.
But, but how can people help? Like what
are some of the best ways
for, for people to help?
So we really love to invite people to
just be involved across
all of our, all of our work,
right? So join our email list, show up
for peer support. We’ve got a
book club that we’ve started
running quarterly. There’s just all sorts
of fun ways that you
could plug in. So again,
the best way to find those open-help.org
slash hello, find all our
social media and everything.
We’re also really emphasizing this year,
the legislative advocacy
work that we’re doing. So
once again, those protect people from
discrimination on the basis of their
family or relationship
structure. And that is inclusive of folks
in the lifestyle. Just
last week, we ran a advocacy
workshop training and published a
comprehensive legislative advocacy
toolkit that we worked on
with a number of other organizations. And
this really just walks
people through step by step,
how do you actually pass this bill in
your city, in your town? How
do you reach out to council
members? How does the legislative process
work? And you’ll find
everything you need there,
including like a sample email script that
you can use for reaching
out to council members,
the info packet that you can bring to the
meeting, sample scripts for
like giving testimony at a
public hearing when your bill comes to a
vote. So one of the most
impactful and concrete and
actionable and local and immediate things
that people can do right
now is to start working on
these non-discrimination protections. So
if you visit our website,
open-help.org slash legislative
advocacy, you can find that toolkit. You
can also find a form to let
us know that you’re interested
in working on this work and we can
provide you with support. We can meet
with you to help walk
you through the process, connect you with
other organizers in your
city. So that’s one of the most
concrete and actionable things.
Otherwise, keep your eyes peeled for the
week of visibility. Coming
up this summer, we encourage people to
organize local in-person
or virtual events in their
community. Keep your eyes open for the
community survey coming
later in the year and please do
share that. And then finally, as I
touched on earlier, we really
do count on people’s financial
support. We are community funded, 97% of
our contributions have
come from individuals so far.
We have not yet closed our budget for the
entirety of 2025. So we
really do need folks support to
make sure that not only can we finish the
year but that we can continue
to show up to continue to do
this really important work because there
is a lot of work that needs
to be done as we’ve touched on
this conversation. If folks are
interested in making a larger
contribution, they can reach out to us.
One of the benefits of being a bigger
donor is you get to say how your money
gets spent. So if you’re
interested, for example, in helping fund
a lifestyle specific
free peer support session,
I would really love to work with somebody
and slap their name on
it. So lots of opportunities
to help not just support our work but to
actively shape our work. So
you can find our donate page,
open-love.org slash donate. And there’s
also an email, a contact
email on that page where you can
reach out if you’re interested in
learning a little bit more
in a deeper conversation.
That’s fantastic. Now, let’s ask the
question that you want to ask, and then
I’m going to use the
Dr. Vivek Murthy. I’m going to use his as
a summary. Yeah, I
figured that would be good.
Okay, one of the things that we have as a
kind of unwritten, sometimes
written rule in swinging is
don’t talk about politics. I’m going to
break that rule just because
we’ve been talking a lot about
legislation and laws and things that are
going on in this country and funding,
funding for programs
and nonprofits, things that are maybe
equitable and inclusive and
maybe the diversity of what’s
going on in the lifestyle and
non-monogamy. Have you seen any direct
impacts based on the last
three weeks of the current
administration? Yeah, let me
start with where you started,
which is that don’t talk about politics.
Listen, I get that rule,
right? Like I go to sex parties,
too. I don’t want to hear people talking
about gun control or
immigration while I’m trying to
get down. But we have to talk about
politics at some point,
because what we are doing is
fundamentally political. Everything is
political. Families are
political. Relationships are
political. Sex is political. And if we
don’t talk about politics,
if we don’t claim our voice in
this conversation, they are going to,
whichever they you want that to be,
they’re going to make
the rules for us. We have to organize. We
have to get political.
Otherwise, nothing is going to
change. Nothing is going to change. We’re
not going to have greater
rights. We’re not going to
have greater acceptance. We’re going to
continue to see lifestyle
clubs getting shut down or rated
by the police. We’re going to continue to
see people get CPS called
on them. These are political
issues. We have to talk about politics.
Now, to ground that a
little bit more into the actual
present political context, right? Like
we’re recording here
February 2025, month two of the
second Trump term. We don’t super know
yet how this is going to play out.
Certainly, we’ve seen
a lot more direct attacks against other
marginalized groups,
particularly immigrants,
particularly trans folks. That obviously
impacts monogamous folks as
well, right? Like LGBTQ plus
folks are more likely to be
non-monogamous. Trans folks are more
likely to have like chosen families
and networks of relationships and care
outside of normative
models. But in terms of a direct
targeting of non-monogamy, we still don’t
know. However, we can
speculate a little bit.
As folks may know, the blueprint for the
second Trump
administration, the policy blueprint is
project 2025. This is a like 700 page
document that outlines in excruciating
detail the administration’s
goals for the second term. The document
starts with four promises,
right? These are the four
pillars of all of their policy work. The
very first one of those
promises is to restore
the family to the center point of
American life and protect children. When
they say the family,
let’s be very clear, they mean a
heterosexual, monogamous,
married couple with kids.
Right. So even if you’re in the lifestyle
and still in an otherwise
fairly monogamous looking
partnership, whether you’re married or
not, whether you’re
heterosexual or not, be aware that like,
this still means that they want to squash
us. They want to make sure
that there are no lifestyle
clubs left. They will pass local
ordinances, they will pass state bills to
shut these clubs down.
They will make sure that pornography is
not accessible. We’ve
already seen states starting to
raise test bills to completely ban
pornography, going far beyond the
existing states that have
already passed age verification laws,
which means that you’ve
got to submit your personally
identifying information into a database
in order to look at porn and
then have it attached to your
identity, which I certainly don’t want.
Who knows how that gets
compromised or who uses that.
Right to contraception is being called
into question, right?
Like I think contraception is
pretty important for folks in the
lifestyle, for everyone
really. No fault divorce is even
being floated by some commentators on the
right as being a target
wherein you can no longer just
divorce your partner without cause. You
need to have some cause. As
I mentioned, Supreme Court
precedent is very much on the chopping
block. So just as Roe v.
First Wade was repealed,
so could Lawrence v. Texas, which is a
far less old precedent than
Roe v. Wade was, and then it
means that you could start seeing anti
adultery laws enforced and criminal
charges pressed against
people for participating in the
lifestyle. So we don’t know, but we have
very real reason to be
concerned. The one more thing I want to
note too, and I don’t necessarily know
even like what to say
about this, but like there, I know that
there are lifestyleers that are
supportive of the current
administration. Like I know them
individually, I know they’re so them who
have donated, which I’m
very grateful for. They are probably
listeners of your podcast that are
supportive of the current
administration. I’m not going to touch on
like the broader stuff, but I
do think it’s very important
for folks to be aware that they may be
putting themselves, their
interests, their community at
risk. And I would encourage people if
they do want to remain anchored into that
political identity or
in those political spaces to speak up, to
speak up. Nobody can like be on
everything. Nobody can
be across every issue. This is an issue
that if you’re listening,
you’re probably participating in.
And so if you have the ear of people that
are conservative, are you’re in
conservative forums,
maybe speak up and be like, hey, this is
actually like kind of totally fine and
okay and not hurting
one and like essential American freedom
to do what I want with
my body and who I want. So
I just want to say like, I don’t want
people to be turned off.
Like it’s no surprise, you know,
my deeper feelings towards Trump being
like a queer Bay Area millennial
polyamorous vegetarian
than I am. But you know, I still want to
speak with the folks that
are a little bit more on the
MAGA side of things and say like, you’ve
got a role to play in this
too. In some ways, you’ve got
an even greater obligation. Yeah, I mean,
if anything, they are
the voice of reason within
their party to be able to say, hey, this
thing that you’re doing,
this putting your thumb on
this thing, I’m in that thing. That’s me.
And realize that while
we don’t necessarily agree
on all the other things that you pointed
out, you know, Second
Amendment and immigration and
whatever other hot button topic it is,
anybody who’s listening to this podcast,
watching us on YouTube, more likely than
not, is part of this
umbrella group of non monogamy.
And there are issues that you brought up,
especially
contraception and a bunch of other
things. Pornography, the one that comes
to mind for me, and we’ve
we’ve talked about this a number
of times, and that’s even sex toys. There
are states where owning or
having shipped to your home
a sex toy is illegal. And so you could
face time because there
are laws on the books and
with the right district attorney, they
will start pressing
charges on those things. So
if you’re listening, this is incumbent on
you to help protect the
rest of the community and
and think, if anything, think for
yourself and think for your fellow
swingers about how is this
really going to swing against us? And
what do we what are we going to do? How
are we going to protect
ourselves and protect our our fellow
community members from things
that may be coming down? And
you may not agree with Project 2025, or
you agree with pieces of
it. The important thing is
picking the things that you don’t agree
with and making sure
that they don’t happen.
So they have it. Yeah, because they’re,
they’re never the Trump
White House is never going to
listen to me, they might listen to you.
So if there are folks that
are interested in chatting
about this, like I’d love to like, let’s
do like a MAGA lifestyle
political action committee.
Right. Let’s, you know, like, let’s
organize, like, let’s reach
across the aisles here. And
let’s organize for our shared interests.
That’s fundamental to
organizing. And this moment calls
for it. Absolutely. Couldn’t agree with
you more. I wanted to talk
about or kind of wrap this up,
because I really loved what the last
surgeon general had said,
and this was came from Vivek
Murthy. And I heard him on NPR, and I was
driving. And so I was trying
to get all was doing. I was
doing a voice to text. So I wasn’t typing
while I was driving. But he
was, he was really focused,
or his last words as he was exiting his
position was he’s, he said, I
really, I would love for all
of us to return to who we fundamentally
are and get back to happiness
by focusing on relationships,
purpose, and service. And it just gives
me chills to, to say that
and to repeat what he had said,
because I think that’s just very profound
and just very much needed
right now, very much needed.
So I, I loved this conversation so much
that we’ve had with you
today, Brett, and I love what your
organization is doing. We are going to
continue to, to push your organization
in, in any way we can.
And we’re looking for more ways to do
that. And so certainly when
the study comes out, and the
visibility comes out in July, we’re going
to be promoting that as
well. And, gosh, you know,
we’re starting to organize some, some
events. We’ve got some
ideas in our, in our pocket. So
we’ll have to do an event in July for
sure. Oh, 100%. Yeah. Yeah. So
any last words, Brett,
before we do our final wrap up?
Yeah. Well, first of all, thank you so
much for your support. Thanks to the
listeners. I would be
happy to hear from any of you, you know,
we’re really here to
serve this community. So reach
out to us at any time, info at
open-love.org. I’ll review YouTube
comments. I make a call a little
too woke and I’m happy to take it. But
yeah, I mean, it’s hard,
it’s hard to top that, right?
At the end of the day, like what is
there, but connection, but,
but joy. And so, you know, I
really think that I just enjoy his future
is achievable. It’s a
multi-generational project,
but I really think that this is, this is
essential to it. And I
think this work matters.
Yeah. We do too.
Greed.
We do too. Thanks for tuning in. We
appreciate you joining our community.
Don’t forget your homework,
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please leave us a message.
I want to throw in before you say that
final catchy line that we
are going to provide everyone
with all the great links that Brett was
calling out today during the
interview. Those will be in
our show notes in case you’re listening
to the podcast. And they’ll
also be on YouTube as well.
And so don’t fret. We will have all of
those great links for you.
Yes. So as we say, keep learning, keep
growing and keep it sexy.