Is Swinging at Risk? The Political Fight for Non-Monogamy Rights

Welcome to Swinger University. I’m Ed and

I’m Phoebe. Today we are

speaking with Brett Chamberlain,

the executive director at OPEN, an

organization for polyamory

and ethical non-monogamy.

They’re a non-profit advocacy

organization working to

advance legal rights and cultural

acceptance for non-monogamous families

and individuals. Since

2022, they have been featured

in seven national media stories such as

the New York Times, NPR, and CBC.

Passed two municipal non-discrimination

ordinances in Berkeley

and Oakland, California.

Partnered with Out and Equal, the leading

global LGBTQ plus

workplace advocacy organization.

Partnered also with six Fortune 500

companies using their

resources to advance inclusive

workspace policies. Collected 7,500

responses from the

community on their surveys, support

and serve people with peer support

sessions twice monthly,

and collaborate with over 60

community groups and creators. Welcome

Brett. We are excited

to have you on our show.

Hi Ed and Phoebe. Thank

you so much for having me.

Yeah, glad you could make it.

Very excited to get this interview with

you and really showcase

or bring to light the OPEN,

the organization and just all the great

work and programs that

you have available. So

once again, excited you’re here.

Thank you.

So let’s start with this one. Here’s a

slow pitch. How did you

get involved with OPEN?

So I’ve been doing advocacy and activism

for really my whole life. I

started out doing anti-war

and anti-recruitment work in my home

state of New Hampshire

as a high school student,

kind of coming of political consciousness

during the early Bush years

and the war on terrorism to

date myself just a little bit. It was at

the front lines of Occupy

Wall Street as a college

student and after graduating from college

founded my first

non-profit in environmental

advocacy organization working on waste on

college campuses. And it was

for a job in the environmental

non-profit sector that brought me out to

the Bay Area in 2016. And

quite quickly I found myself

becoming really immersed in the Bay Area

sex-positive and polyamorous communities.

And I found it really

impactful, very personally

transformative. It gave me access to

these really wonderful, supportive,

vulnerable, liberated communities. It

gave me access to new

school skills and tools and

vocabularies to pursue the relationships

that were fulfilling for me. But in

immersing in these spaces,

I learned a couple things that really

surprised me. And the first was just how

widespread non-monogamy

actually was. One in five American adults

will be in a non-monogamous

relationship at some point in

their life and about one in 20 describe

their current relationship as

non-monogamous. And this

of course includes the whole range of

non-monogamous identities and

experiences from polyamory to

relationship anarchy to the swinger

lifestyle and many, many, many, many more

terms and labels that

people use beyond those. The next thing I

learned that was really

surprising to me was just how

marginalized of an identity this really

was. That even in quite progressive

places like the Bay Area,

my friends and my peers were afraid of

being open about their

identity or their relationships or

their family in the workplace because of

the stigma and the

pushback that that can lead to.

And so it seemed that there was an

opportunity for more advocacy in this

space to push not only for

acceptance, to end this stigma, to end

the marginalization, but

critically to push for greater

rights, to dismantle the systemic

barriers that marginalized

non-monogamous families and

relationships, and to ensure that people

had access to the full

rights and privileges and

protections that we grant to various

other identities and

family structures. So I decided

to take the dump. I quit my job and

started putting the pieces together for

OPEN in the beginning of

2022. We publicly launched the

organization that spring, so we are

approaching in just about six

weeks our three-year anniversary. And

it’s been a really exciting ride since

then. This is a really

rapidly growing space, movement space,

that I think has

reached this critical mass and

it’s really wonderful to see folks

stepping into their political power

and really claiming our seat at the table

and our voice in the conversation.

Very nice, very nice. And do you feel

comfortable sharing your

relationship preference?

Yeah, you know, I’ve started identifying

just as non-monogamous generically. You

know, as I mentioned

there, I kind of came out of the somewhat

more polyamory oriented Bay

Area scene. And, you know,

previous times had identified as

polyamorous. But

interestingly, when I was recording with

Dan and Lacey from the Swing Nation

podcast, if you don’t mind me

mentioning another podcast by

name on your, pardon me if that’s bad

form. I was describing my relationship

structure and at the

time I had, you know, one partner and we

would, you know,

sometimes play with other folks at

parties and whatnot. And they said to me,

you know, that kind of

sounds like the lifestyle.

And, you know, I think there is an

interesting point there that

these labels are all kind of

squishy and bleed into one another.

Right. So, yeah, I think that labels are

important for helping

us understand ourselves and our

experiences. But

ultimately, I think that non-monogamy

as the umbrella term is the most

expansive, it’s the most

flexible. And I’ll let you

add a little secret as an organizer in

this space. It’s also very politically

prudent for me to not

pick a side as it were. Right. Yeah,

that’s a really good

point. And we’ve struggled a lot

with labels in terms of depending on who

you’re talking to or where

they are in their journey,

how progressive they are in terms of

there was a term floated

around when we first got started,

which was progressive swinging, which was

sort of poly, but sort of

swinging. And it’s one of those

things where it’s like people are kind of

creating their own

terminology just to be able to describe

their one particular unique slice of this

spectrum. You know,

there’s so many different ways

that people are ethically non-monogamous.

And you can’t really put a

single label on some of the

things that people do because it’s it

depends on the weekend, right?

They could change from here to

there. So which label do you stick with?

So yeah, it’s it’s good. I

even find it interesting that we

we feel the need to put the word ethical

in front of it because

there’s already a judgment, a stigma

on non-monogamy. Why can’t non-monogamy

just be fine? Like why does it have to be

labeled with something? Why does it have

to have another descriptor to go,

oh, well, it’s ethical. We’re being

ethical about it. We’re not cheating.

Right. And I get it, but at

the same time, it’s kind of like using

the negative to have to

define what we’re doing,

which we tend to think of as very

positive. But yeah, right. And if I was

to name the organization

again tomorrow, I think we would go with

a different name. Of

course, it’s a very punchy

little acronym. But increasingly, we’re

just using open in part

because the full name of the

organization is it’s a mouthful, but also

because of some reasonable

concerns around the ethical

label that you just raised. There are

already multiple words for

non-consensual, non-monogamy.

We call it cheating. We call it

infidelity. And so increasingly, we’re

just using the label

non-monogamy, which really captures the

whole range of practices

within it. Yeah. Yeah. That’s

great. I like it. What are some of the

programs and services that

you offer for people who are

listening? So let me start with our

theory of change, which is

really just activist speech for

how we’re actually going to go about

doing what it is that

we say we’re going to do.

Right. So our mission is to advance

rights and acceptance for

non-monogamous people. How do we

do that? So it’s a threefold approach.

And I’m starting with this

because our programs then kind

of fall into these buckets. Yeah, it

makes sense. So the first is supporting

non-monogamous communities

and relationships. Right. The idea is

that if people aren’t experiencing

positive outcomes in

their own lives, in their own experience

of non-monogamy, it’s

really hard for them to then show

up for the broader advocacy activities

that we want to invite

people in towards. So some of our

programs in this area include things like

our free twice monthly peer support

sessions that provide

a safe and inclusive space for people to

come together, connect with other

non-monogamous folks,

share what’s going on in their life, get

advice, and so on. We’ve also

published a range of resources

that aim to help people navigate various

systemic barriers or

important life events,

processes, and moments in our lives that

aren’t typically designed

with our types of families and

relationships in mind. So this include

things like our end of life

planning and death care guide.

Right. This is like a really important

and very difficult conversation. Like

everybody in a family

and partnership needs to have at some

point. But again, these

industries are designed with

normative family models in mind. So we’ve

created a resource to help people

navigate that. That’s

just one example. We’ve got a few others

that folks can find on

our website, open-love.org

resources. So that’s supporting the

non-monogamous community. The next area

of our work is invisibility.

Like the ideas of people are experiencing

positive outcomes, then they feel more

proud, more ready to be visible about

their identity. Some of

the programs in this area

include the annual week of visibility for

non-monogamy. That’ll

be in July of this year.

We’ll be sending out a save the date

soon. And that’s an annual global

celebration where we

encourage people just to show up and come

together in community,

connect with other non-monogamous

people where they live, but also have

conversations with their neighbors that

may not be as familiar

with the identities and values of the

non-monogamous communities that are

interwoven with, of course,

every other community. We’ve also done

our annual community survey. We’ve run

this for three years

in 2024. We collected 4,500 responses

from 70 countries, making

that the largest survey of

non-monogamous people published to date.

And this really helps us get

a grasp on the identities and

the experiences of the communities we

serve really across the world. And

critically, this data

not only helps steer our work, but it

also helps to substantiate

some of our advocacy work and

finally shape the conversation around

non-monogamy. So that data set gets used

by academic researchers,

by presenters, at conferences, by

journalists in their coverage of

non-monogamy, and so on.

So the final piece of our work is the

advocacy work, right? And

this is kind of where the rubber

meets the road. This is really actually

passing laws, changing

systems. Our two major program areas

in the advocacy sphere are our Open

Workplaces Initiative. This is a

workplace advocacy program

that helps non-monogamous professionals

safely open up about their

identity at work, but also

push for more inclusive policies in the

workplace. So anti-discrimination and

anti-harassment language

in your hiring guidelines and in your

employee handbook and so

on. And the other side of our

advocacy work is the legislative

advocacy. And this is

focused on passing municipal-level

non-discrimination protections. So those

bar discrimination on

the basis of family or

relationship structure. As you mentioned

in the intro, we helped get

those passed in Berkeley and

Oakland in California last year. And that

follows the lead set by

Cambridge and Somerville,

Massachusetts in 2023. And we’re really

thrilled to be scaling

up that effort in 2025.

We’re working with grassroots leaders in

Seattle, in San Francisco,

in Portland, in Santa Jose,

and a range more cities. We’ve just

published a comprehensive

legislative advocacy toolkit,

collaboratively with a number of other

organizations that really walked people

through that entire process, top to

bottom. Everything you

need to know to pass local

productions where you live. So we’re

really hoping that that

resource can help people

bring this effort to home, to their

community. And we can expand the coverage

of these productions

from two cities in 2023, reaching four

cities in 2024, to hopefully far more

cities this year and

in the years to come. Excellent. Oh, I

was thinking of Colorado.

Colorado might be good too.

Boulder’s on our list. Yeah.

Boulder, I think.

Nice. Nice.

Would be a good place to start.

Yeah, there’s a pretty large swing

community there. So yeah, very cool.

And Boulder’s very progressive in college

town and that would be

fun. Oh, I’m very excited. I’m

very, very excited for the direction your

company’s going and

organization is going. And

we have more questions. Let’s see.

Let’s see. How is open changing the

public perception in

regard to ad campaigns and media

and how can people help?

Yeah. Visibility and acceptance is really

essential when it

comes to, or I should say

visibility is essential when it comes to

promoting acceptance. People

are far more likely to accept

somebody with an out-group identity, such

as participation in

non-monogamy, if they actually

directly know somebody who’s

non-monogamous. So if your coworker or

your friend or family member

or a member of your church congregation

is non-monogamous, it

really helps you humanize that

practice and realize that they’re not out

to steal your spouse. So we

really do encourage people to

be open about their identity if it’s safe

for them to do so. Now,

it’s really important to put a

caveat here that not everyone can be open

about their identity,

particularly if you hold other

marginalized identities. Discrimination

and marginalization can

compound as you have more

and more identities. So for folks for

whom it is safe to do so, we do really

encourage you to think

about having that conversation with your

friend, with your coworker, with your

siblings, your family

members, because every person that is

open about their identity that

helps chip away at that stigma

and the misconceptions makes it safer for

other people to be

open about their identity.

So to help people do this, we’ve, you

know, this really cuts across a lot of

our work, right? So,

as I mentioned, in our Open Workplaces

toolkit, we provide tips for

how to open up safely in the

workplace. We do social media education

where we tackle myths

about non-monogamy, some of the

really persistent and frustrating myths

just keep seeming to come up.

We put out research like our

community survey. We organized the Global

Week of Visibility for

Non-Monogamy that had participants

in, I think, five countries this past

year with dozens and dozens of

in-person and virtual events.

And finally, we worked to get our story

out into the media. It’s

really important that we be reaching

not just other non-monogamous people, but

the general public in

order to really actively push

back against some of those myths and

misconceptions and portray, present a

more authentic portrayal of

non-monogamy. Yeah, that’s great. You

make a really good

point. It’s one thing to see

a TikTok post or something from an

influencer, if you will, and something

completely different

when you hear a personal story and you

know that person. I

can think of examples of

a lot of people in the LGBTQ community

who have friends and family

who support that community

and become advocates for that community

because it’s like their

brother or their sister or their

their child. But anybody who doesn’t have

a close personal relationship with that,

they don’t have that understanding. They

don’t have that recognition

that we’re all people. We all

deserve our own set of rights that every

other person is entitled to. So,

discrimination in any

factor is not a good thing. I’d never

really thought about

identities being compounded.

When you were saying that, is that where

maybe you’re open about

being lesbian or gay and

“Oh, by the way, I’m also

non-monogamous.” Is that where you’re

saying where those identities start

to compound and then that can have some

challenges for individuals in their

community or with their

family circle? Is that what we were

saying with that statement?

Yeah, particularly folks that have other

marginalized

identities are less likely to

have the types of class privilege that

might insulate them from

the implications of being

fired from their job. There might be

existing biases that can

intersect with this sense of

with the biases around non-monogamy. So,

some ethnic identities or queer

identities tend to be

more sexualized and that can reinforce

perceptions of non-monogamy that it’s

just about sex or that

these people are out to steal your

partner. So, those are just examples of

these ways that these

different intersecting identities or

marginalized identities can come into

conversation with one

another or amplify one another by

reinforcing existing

stereotypes about those different

identities. Interesting. I never knew

that or thought about that.

We’re at a disadvantage for thinking

about other people’s shoes because we

live in our own shoes

right? I know. We are Caucasian and

middle class and a lot of other things

that kind of give us

certain privileges that we don’t realize

on a daily basis until you

start talking about people,

talking to people who do not have those

privileges. And yeah,

I think it’s great that

de-stigmatizing any of these things helps

to kind of reduce that

compound issue. And so,

all of us kind of working together to

help take that noise down, I

think will be really good for

the community in general. Yeah, let me

add two more pieces on this. Just, and

sorry, do you want to go

ahead? Yeah, it’s because I think this is

a really important topic.

First of all, this points to the

importance of that storytelling, of that

visibility, right? Like I know that I’ve

learned a lot because

as I described earlier, like I had my own

experience with

non-monogamy, but it’s in a

pretty progressive area. I’m also a

cisgendered white man who has

enjoyed a considerable degree

of privilege as a result of those

privileged identities. And

it’s really important for me

to be in conversation and for all of us

to be in conversation with

folks who have had different

experiences because, for example, if not

for having had those

conversations, I might be saying,

everybody needs to be open about their

non-monogamous identity. And that can

actually be harmful. It can

put people at risk if we don’t really

acknowledge and understand that different

people have different

ways of showing up. The other really

important point to all this

is that this work has to go

both ways, by which I mean not only do we

as non-monogamous people

have to be showing up in a way

that acknowledges different identities,

intersections with non-monogamy, we also

as a movement have to

show up in ways that work to address the

marginalization that

other people experience on the

basis of those identities. So I can

illustrate this, I think, a little bit

better with a point.

We did a panel discussion on identity and

inclusion in the

non-monogamous communities.

And one of the speakers, who’s the

president of Opens

Board, William Winters,

leads a Bay Area sex-positive and

polyamorous community

called Bonobos. And William has a

background himself in social justice and

racial justice organizing.

And he was discussing how to

make your non-monogamous community or

your events, your sex-positive events,

more inclusive on the

basis of race. And he certainly provided

some suggestions that you

can take into consideration

to do that. But he also made the point

that you’re not going to solve

racism in your non-monogamous

community because racism exists out there

everywhere. We live in a

society with generational

systemic inequalities and systemic

racism. And so if we want

to have safe and inclusive

non-monogamous communities and

sex-positive events on the

basis of race, we can’t just fix

it ourselves here. We have to go out

there. So this is why I

think it’s really important that

as non-monogamous people and as a

non-monogamous movement, we also show up

for intersecting and

overlapping movements, for social

justice, for racial

justice, for economic justice,

and environmental justice, and so on.

Yeah, I mean, the easiest way

for me to think about that is

all the underdogs need to stick together.

We’re all fighting similar

problems. We’re all fighting

for, in a sense, our seat in society and

to be normalized. So it

makes sense. It’s interesting

that we’re talking about this. We just

did an interview recently

with Alex Liu for a documentary

that he produced called “A Sexplanation.”

And largely the

documentary was about sex education

in the United States and the lack of the

utter just disparity that

we have of educating people

in terms of just basic, procreative,

recreational sex. Like, sex has a whole

bunch of different uses

in the world. And it was interesting

because we also touched on the LGBTQ

community because he

happens to be gay. And so we talked about

coming out and being open

and all of those things that

he had to struggle with in that

particular facet of his life. And we’d

gotten some comments about,

like, “Why are you bringing the gay thing

in?” Oh, yeah. On the

video. And we were like, “Well,

because, hey, there are bisexual people

who are swingers. There are lesbian and

gay men who are in the lifestyle.” And

I’m sure that that happens

in polyamory as well, although

we don’t know any personally, but I can’t

imagine that there is not some Venn

diagram where all of

those things intersect at some level. So

100% agree. We’ve all got

to talk about this. We’re

all in this together. And there’s a ton

of overlap between all of these different communities,

if nothing more than just being

marginalized and being

pushed out by the “normal people.”

Right. Yeah. It’s all about confronting

normative models and the

hierarchies that uphold those

normative models. And whether that

normative model that you’re

addressing is whiteness or

heteronormativity or mononormativity, we

are confronting the

same, if not the same,

systems or structures directly, then

certainly the same meta

structures of inequality and of

marginalization. Yeah. Yeah, for sure.

Now, I know you talked about

the peer support group that

occurs twice weekly. Is that correct?

Twice monthly. It’s on

the second and third Tuesday

of each month. That’s on your website,

and is it free for people

or is there a small fee? How

does that work? Totally free to attend.

We do gratefully accept folks’

contributions. Of course,

these programs all take money to run and

open being a nonprofit.

We’re not getting major

philanthropic funding. We’re not getting

any philanthropic or any

significant philanthropic

funding because legacy foundations are

certainly not really

paying attention to this issue.

We’re not getting corporate sponsorship.

We totally depend on our

community to support our work.

So folks can register for the peer

support sessions at

open-love.org slash peer-support.

And we’re really proud to be able to

offer those for free.

Conventional kind of talk therapy is

prohibitively expensive for most people.

Health insurance, if you’re

lucky enough to be able to

afford that, typically doesn’t cover it.

And there are many

fantastic non-monogamous

facilitators who do offer excellent peer

support or partner support or coaching,

often though those do come at a cost as

well. So we’re really

thrilled to be able to offer

this program free and accessible. That’s

fantastic. I love that. I’ve

found a lot of value in these

virtual, any virtual event that brings

together the community that

we’re in, the non-monogamy

community. It’s so nice to just feel like

you’re not alone. And a lot

of times people, they don’t

have anybody to talk to. There’s no one

in their family unit or

friends that they know of that they

can talk to. And so it can be very

isolating. There’s also a

Discord channel that you have.

Is that still going? Absolutely. I think

we have about 700, coming on

800 members in our community

Discord. Folks can find the link to our

Discord and to all of our social media

pages at open-love.org

slash hello. Open-love.org slash hello.

And in a Discord, we’ve got folks from

all around the world

having great conversations, offering

advice, talking about great

non-monogamous books. But we

also have organizing channels. We’re

really hoping to grow a little bit more

this year to provide a

space for folks to collaborate around

their work as community

leaders or event organizers or

advocates for some of the interventions

we’ve been talking about today. So we’d

love to welcome folks

into our Discord. We’ve got folks from,

as I say, all around the

world and a whole range of

non-monogamous practices, polyamory, the

lifestyle, relationship

anarchy, and many more.

That’s great. Go ahead. No. Wait, what is

relationship anarchy?

So there are many folks that can give a

better definition than I can.

Relationship anarchy is

the idea that people should have the

freedom to construct every

one of their relationships

according to the needs and desires and

capacities of the people in that

relationship without regard

for prescribed forms or models of what a

relationship is or should

look like in any of the domains.

So folks will often refer to this tool.

That’s actually a great tool

for folks in any relationship

structure called the Relationship

Schmorgasbord, which lays out various

different dimensions of

relationship from emotional support to

co-parenting to financial entanglement to

emotional intimacy, physical intimacy,

kink, so on and so

forth. And through this tool,

the Schmorgasbord people can go through

collaboratively with

a partner or partners

and talk about how they’d like to show up

or what they’re not

available for in each domain of that

relationship. And one of the things that

I think is a really great

takeaway from relationship

anarchy that again, I think is applicable

for everyone is that

every relationship we are in

in our lives is a relationship, right?

Like relationships, kind

of two words at once. We

use it to mean romantic relationship, but

like I’m in a

relationship with my friends, with my

roommates, with my siblings, just

different types of relationships, but all

of them can still involve

a design for like what types of support

do we want to provide? So I can have a

conversation with my

roommates about, hey, to what extent are

you available for

emotional support, for example,

or even, you know, non-sexual physical

intimacy? Do we feel comfortable cuddling

while we watch a movie,

even if, you know, again, we’re

roommates. So I think that

there’s a lot of really great

learnings and wisdoms that come from the

relationship anarchy kind of theory.

Yeah. And I like the idea of, in a sense,

anarchy just being the

non-conformist nature of

build your own relationship. You know,

you construct it however

you want and don’t feel

compelled to have to fit the, once again,

that cookie cutter

definition of what that means.

I can imagine it requires a little bit

more creative

conversation. And that it sounds like

that tool would be really good to be able

to describe what that

relationship is. And a lot

of times we’ll give it advice to other

swingers when they go,

well, we’ve got this kind of

interesting relationship. Does this ever

happen? And it’s like,

well, sure, you’ll want to do it

that way. So it does exist. You just need

to have a conversation with your

potential partners to see

if, Hey, are you on board for this? One

of the relationships was the

woman is interested in full

swap, but the man is only interested in

oral. And it’s like, great.

Try and put that into a cookie

cutter definition. It’s a little, you

know, it’s an odd looking

cookie. We’ll just call it that.

It doesn’t look like a traditional cookie

that everybody else

can point to and go that,

but that’s perfectly valid for that

couple. And that’s

what they like to do. So

they just need to present that and say,

Hey, this is what we want.

But sometimes it’s hard to have the, or

challenging because you,

those are those instances where you want

to look for a label to just

go, I’m blocked, right? And

not have five sentences about it in a

social setting where it’s

loud and no one can understand

you. Right. Right. So they were like

looking for a definition. And

I’m like, Oh, I don’t think,

I don’t think there is one. Yeah. And I’m

like, it’s that elevator

pitch, right? Like it’s hard

to come up with an elevator pitch,

something that you can say in

like one or two sentences that,

that just describes what you want. But

you know that something to work on.

The other, the other couple that reached,

uh, the quad that reached out to us,

is they, they started, um, they opened up

their relationship. They

immediately fell in love with

another couple and they’ve just been a

quad ever since. And, but now the

opposite partners are

wanting to, to go out and experience

other partners, not, not,

not bring them back as a quad,

but more on a swinging, uh, type of, of

relationship. And so now there’s this

consensus between all four

and how they feel about it. And so they

reached out and said, is

this normal? And we’re like,

it’s normal for you.

Is it, it is for you. Thank you. That’s

what you want to do. And

that’s how you, you know, you,

that’s what interests you. Then it sounds

like you, you guys

already have the, that great

communication. I, I said, you, you’ve

been doing this for years. You clearly

have your communication

down. It’s what’s working is, is great.

You know, just continue with that and

have fun and report back.

But, you know, those are the things that

are people are like, they know they’re

doing it differently,

but they don’t really, they’re not

finding other people to relate

to, to go, how do we navigate

this? How do we do this new thing? Yeah.

I mean, I think that the key

takeaway point here is that,

you know, we’ve been told for the longest

time that there is one

right way to do relationships,

right? It’s the monogamous relationship.

And what we’re

advocating for is that there are,

there are more right ways or acceptable

ways to do relationships.

But let’s say that, you know,

we say, okay, monogamy is a right way.

And also the lifestyle is a right way.

Well, now you’ve given

people twice as many options, but they

are still constrained, right? If

lifestyle only means one

thing, if it only looks like one thing,

well, people still don’t really have the

freedom to pursue the

relationships that are right for them

that may fall outside of

those boxes. And again, I think

that’s a great takeaway from relationship

anarchy, but I think an

essential kind of theoretical

underpinning for this advocacy work as a

whole, is that it’s not just about

elevating non-monogamous

relationships to stand alongside

monogamous romantic

relationships at the top of the

relationships you’re at the stack, right?

It’s the ultimate, most

desirable, most important form

of relationship. But rather, it’s about

saying all relationships

are fundamental to the human

experience and are worthy of respect and

are worthy of, you know, care and

compassion and effort and

intention among the people that are part

of them and also respect

among the people that are around

them. Right. And at the same time,

though, as you do correctly,

I observed earlier, and like,

labels are helpful, having a pithy

elevator pitch is

helpful. So yeah, yeah, yeah.

Acknowledge that it goes both ways. Yeah,

it’s always, it’s always

fun. It’s a, it’s a good

challenge, though, because I think trying

to come up with the elevator

pitch or the way to describe

your relationship communicates that you

have, you’re taking the

effort to try and describe your

relationship to other people. And I think

that that’s great. And I

think if you have to have a

conversation about it, there are worse

things to have conversations

about, you know, it’s, it’s

great. Like talk about it. Yeah, exactly.

How is open supporting

people impacted by legal issues?

So getting past kind of the social, you

know, normalization of all of these

various combinations

of human beings. There’s, there’s some

stuff going on in terms of legal

implications. I mean, even

leases, I’ve, and health insurance with

different standards for

domestic partnerships versus

married partnerships, right? Like there’s

all kinds of slippery stuff

going on. How is open helping

with all that? You know, not as much as I

wish we were able to. There

are a range of issues at play

there that you just touched on everything

from health insurance to

child custody, which can be

incredibly intense and high stakes and

very heightened legal

area. What more, what’s more,

we of course have a federal system where

there are 50 different legal frameworks

in different states.

A lot of this is regulated or governed at

the state level. So it can

vary quite a bit how folks

need to address these challenges at the

state level. We’re still, I

would say in quite the early

stages of our efforts to provide people

with more direct support in

this area. Much of what we’re

doing at this stage is just through

education. So I spoke earlier of our

educational resources.

An example of a resource that we are

currently developing is

around housing. This includes

things like co-buying a house as a

multi-partner arrangement,

moving in if you’re, let’s say,

a third member of a triad or perhaps two

couples decide to move in

together. And now you’re in a

situation where two of them are

technically the owners of the landlords

and the other two are

technically their tenants, but also their

partners or their swing partners. So

those are examples of

the types of educational resources that

we’re hoping to put out. Looking ahead

into the longer run,

for minority identities like this,

typically there’s a dual

approach. Actually, really a

trifecta approach. You’ve got the

cultural approach, then you’ve got the

legislative approach,

and then you finally have a judicial

approach. That is what we saw

with gay marriage, to choose

an obviously relevant example, where you

had in some states it

was being legalized through

judiciary. You had a legal case and a

judge was saying, “Indeed, this is

discriminatory,” and

overturning a law restricting marriage to

partners of an opposite

gender. Whereas in other cases,

you had it going through the legislature,

the state legislature

passing a bill. But those judicial

cases, those all depend on having

lawyers. Lawyers are expensive. And you

also want to ensure that

you’re doing it in a coordinated fashion,

because what you don’t want

to do is move forward with

the case and have the judge say, “Yeah,

actually this discriminatory law is

totally fine,” and then

you’ve established even more precedent

reinforcing that law and makes it harder

to overturn down the

line. So in the future, I do think that

the Nominogamy community will

have access to greater legal

support and legal resources such that we

as a movement, and I

use the royal “we” there,

although I do hope that Open will

continue to have a role to

play in that, are able to

deliver legal services, direct legal

services and legal support to

people that are going through

these issues. And that we’re also able to

provide greater legal education. So

lawyers, through their

professional accreditation or their law

school, should be aware of Nominogamy.

They should be aware

of the issues impacting such that if a

lawyer is dealing with a

custody dispute, wherein somebody’s

participation in the lifestyle, for

example, is a factor that’s being raised

in order to deny them

custody of their child, that lawyer is

not being caught totally

off guard and can know how to

respond to that. This takes time. This

takes money. This takes no

how. But I think that we will

get there. In the meantime, I do want to

highlight a couple

organizations that are doing great work

in this space. One is Chosen Family Law

Center. They practice in New

York and New Jersey. And the

other is Chosen Family Law Texas. I

should note there that both are

organizations that we collaborate

with. Stacy McClarty, the attorney from

Chosen Family Law Texas,

sits on the Open’s board. And

of course, lawyers are typically barred

to practice in a particular state. So I

know that only covers

New York, New Jersey and Texas. There are

many other lawyers out

there and certainly Open or

those providers can help refer folks to

other inclusive and accepting lawyers.

Another resource that support with that

is the Kink and Poly

Aware Professionals Directory,

maintained by the National Coalition for

Sexual Freedom. And this

includes lawyers and therapists

and so on that self-identify as being

Kink and Poly and lifestyle

aware and ready to advocate

for clients that hold those identities or

practices. Very good. Yeah. I could see

the legal complexity with all of this.

The law works very well to

find something that is legal

versus illegal. And because it’s very

clear cut. If you do this,

this happens. But we just talked

about this massive slippery slope of

definitions of things. So I can imagine

trying to codify that

into a law book with very clear

boundaries gets tricky. And maybe it’s a

matter of just having

better definitions of what these things

are or grouping things

together and just say humans can

do things. And maybe we should stop being

so particular about which

humans can do what things.

But yeah, I could see that. And I’ll

throw this out. Any of our listeners or

people who are watching

this, who are lawyers, who are interested

in contributing to

Open’s cause and the cause of

helping this whole thing get resolved

legally, please reach out.

We’d love to put you in touch

or you can contact them directly. We

definitely know there’s lots

of nurses and doctors and law

enforcement who are in the lifestyle. We

run across them all the

time. But I’m sure because

we’re a cross section of society in

general that there are lawyers out there

who might want to help.

Yeah, I’d love to hear from folks. And I

do, I’m sorry, I keep

stepping on you there. I just,

I’ve got, I love talking about this

stuff, but I do want to just want to

double click on one point

you made, Ed. And that is that, you know,

in some regard, the law is

black and white, right? Like,

it’s written in this very elaborate, very

concrete language. And yet that still

leaves a lot of room

for ambiguity. So for example, in custody

cases, the standard at

play is what’s called the best

interest of the child. And that’s up to

the judge to determine that. And so if

the judge has negative

preconceptions about folks in the

lifestyle, and thinks that it’s going to

be dangerous for the kid

to be around, and there’s always going to

be people coming over, then

they can deny custody of a child

to somebody who participates in the

lifestyle. Another example are anti

adultery laws. So there

are 16 states in the US that still have

anti adultery laws on the books. It’s a

felony in three of them.

So if you’re legally married and

participating in the

lifestyle, you are violent in the law.

Now those laws persist, even though there

was a US Supreme Court

case called Lawrence v. Texas,

that very long story short, said the

government can’t legislate

what you do in your bedroom.

And so these laws are, you know, on their

face unconstitutional,

but just like remain on the

books as kind of zombie laws. And

particularly in this

political era, like who knows how safe

Lawrence v. Texas is like anything seems

like it could be

overturned, and all of a sudden,

these laws become relevant again. So yes,

you know, in some regard,

the law is black and white,

to the extent that like it is written in

quite specific words. And

yet there is a lot of room

for interpretation and ambiguity and gray

areas within that. Yes.

Yeah. And I think it’s in

particular, especially with laws, it’s

it’s in how it is written that that

ambiguity kind of favors

flexibility in certain areas. Totally

unrelated case, for example, in

California, it is it is not

illegal to split lanes or to share lanes.

So if you ride a motorcycle,

you can ride between lanes.

And that’s just because the law doesn’t

say it is illegal to do

that. So there’s there’s a hole,

basically. So we just need to create the

right holes in the law so

that we can all live together

in harmony. I want to talk about the

survey that you put out every year and

how people can be part

of that to to provide data. When when

does the new survey come out?

And then I also wanted to talk

about any surprising statistics that you

found with your last survey results.

Yeah, our community survey, we’ve

typically run in the spring this year,

we’re going to be pushing

it back to the end of year so that it

conflicts a little bit less with our

organizing around the

week of visibility and also so that we

can kind of hook it on to

the like end of year, you know,

Spotify wrapped news cycle and hopefully

get a little bit more or

media coverage over it.

So folks are eager to to take the survey,

we’d really welcome their

participation. The best way

to make sure that you get it is by

following us on social media or joining

our email list. You can

do that again via open-love.org slash

hello. We do quite a bit of

outreach to folks across the

Naminagami space to ask them to signal

boost it. So you’ll be

hearing from us in a couple months

there. I’d love for you to share it then

as well. Excellent. A couple

things that stand out. First,

I want to note too, I would love to get

more responses from

folks in the lifestyle. Our

2024 survey had 6.1% of people who

identified as lifestyle or

swinger. About half of respondents

identified as polyamorous. So it does

skew a little bit more

polyamorous. I’d love to get

more lifestyle representation there. A

couple of things that

surprised me. First of all,

most people are not fully open about

their identity in most

areas of their life. So with

the exception of with close friends,

people are not typically

open at work or with their

extended friends or in their online or

social media identity. I

know that that may be more

relevant for folks that hold polyamorous

identities that are in

the lifestyle. I think

very understandably for folks in the

lifestyle, because it’s

not necessarily an ongoing

partnership or relationship in the way

that it might be for

a polyamorous person,

there’s less of a desire or need to be

able to explain that

you’re spending the weekend with

your other boyfriend and his family. Even

so though, I think that

people don’t want to be

afraid of having it found out that they

went to a swinger cruise or

lifestyle cruise and worry

about losing their job. So there is still

opportunity and really

a need for acceptance

and create a little bit more space for

people to be open. Because

even if you don’t want to

practically share, you also shouldn’t

need to worry about being

outed. So those are kind of

corollaries. Yeah, I can see how being

polyamorous would be more

easily socially acceptable,

because you are in a relationship with

additional people. There’s

love there, there’s shared

responsibilities. And I can see the

general population going,

“Oh, okay. Well, you just love

more than one person. That’s fine.” But

then when you think about

swingers, the first thing that

comes to everyone’s mind is, “Oh, you

just want to have sex with

everything that walks by.” No,

no, no, that’s not it. But so it’s that

educating and reframing of

people’s minds and trying to

define it. But yet in that definition,

even the swinger community,

as we talked about earlier,

is very diverse. It is still its own

umbrella, but it is very

diverse in what people want.

Some people only want a one night stand,

if you will, that’s no

different than if you’re

in the dating world and you go to a bar.

Some people really want

that friendship, that close

connection, a relationship with people.

They want to travel with

them. They don’t want to be

polyamorous, but they want good, solid

heartfelt friendships. So it’s

interesting and different.

I can see how it’s more challenging for a

swinger to just come out

and say, “Yeah, I went to

a swinger cruise or a

swinger resort or a swinger party.”

Yeah, and I get the relationship and a

poly relationship is very

apparent to people because

you have this intersected family, this

extended, this

non-nuclear family that’s created.

It’s harder to hide that, much like being

gay. You have a same sex

partner. It’s obvious that

you’re holding hands with this person.

You can’t hide it. You’ve got three

people who are living

at the same address. Are they the

roommate? It’s out there.

There’s a much more visible sign,

but you’re right. I think that there’s a

little bit of a kink to

swinging from the standpoint of

“Tee hee hee, we’re doing something

that’s secret and we’re

getting away with something.”

There is a little bit of that novelty to

it that I get why there

are probably people in

the swinger community who are like,

“Well, yeah, don’t take that away from

me. That’s the fun part.”

I get it. Yeah, I completely get that

too. Also, there are people

that don’t want to have to

worry about it. I’ve spoken with somebody

who works for a major

series of lifestyle clubs that

folks have heard of, you’ve probably been

to. She accidentally one

day wrote to her kid’s school,

telling them how I’m going to be able to

pick them up or something

from her work email address

and had job protective services show up

at her door the next day.

So it’s like, listen, if you want to be,

if you think it’s kinky to be secret

about your identity,

no one’s going to take that away from

you. No one’s saying you

have to label yourself as a

swinger. You must declare your swinger

relationship. You can

still keep it secret,

but the visibility means that for the

people that don’t want to keep

it secret or just slip up and

it comes out, you shouldn’t have to worry

about losing their kids. Oh, yes. 100%.

I went through a divorce and one of the

first things that I was

concerned about was because I

was looking for full custody, was if this

comes out, it’s bad enough.

I’m already a man who wants

full custody of his children. That’s

already difficult in many

states, but then you start to

compound it with like, well, he’s a

swinger. So clearly there’s, it’s not a

stable home environment.

So yeah, I can absolutely see that. And

we absolutely had the

conversation before our

faces came out on our podcasts on

YouTube. We were like, is there a

morality clause in our

employment? Do we have to worry about

this stuff? Like what, what

does this mean? What are the

potential fallout for all of this stuff?

And so yeah, we’ve had

that conversation a number of

times. And so far we’ve been okay. Yeah.

Yeah. I’m glad that’s the

case for you. It’s interesting.

Your experience calls to mind is this

phenomenon called minority

stress, which is really just like

sociologists speak for the stress that

somebody experiences when

they hold an outgroup identity,

particularly one that they feel the need

to conceal. So as you

just shared, like I’m sure

that that consideration, that calculus

and even the persistent

risk that I’m still has never

completely gone is a source of some

anxiety for you. And in

fact, studies have shown that non

monogamous people actually do have higher

rates of anxiety and

depression. And it’s theorized to

be because of the fear that job

protective services is going

to call up. I’m going to lose

custody of my kids. I’m going to get

fired from my HR job. I’m

going to get, or I’m going to get

fired from my job or called into HR.

Right. So on and so forth. Right.

Yeah. Feeling a little stressed there,

Ed. I know. Thank you for

acknowledging my stress.

So we touched on a little bit in terms of

how people can help, but I

want to ask it again. And

that is what are some of the ways that

people can help your

program? And then we’ve got one more

topic that we want to talk about because

we’ve kind of, we’ve danced

around it a little bit and

we tend not to touch this topic, but

we’re going to touch it today. Oh, so

stay, stay tuned for that.

But, but how can people help? Like what

are some of the best ways

for, for people to help?

So we really love to invite people to

just be involved across

all of our, all of our work,

right? So join our email list, show up

for peer support. We’ve got a

book club that we’ve started

running quarterly. There’s just all sorts

of fun ways that you

could plug in. So again,

the best way to find those open-help.org

slash hello, find all our

social media and everything.

We’re also really emphasizing this year,

the legislative advocacy

work that we’re doing. So

once again, those protect people from

discrimination on the basis of their

family or relationship

structure. And that is inclusive of folks

in the lifestyle. Just

last week, we ran a advocacy

workshop training and published a

comprehensive legislative advocacy

toolkit that we worked on

with a number of other organizations. And

this really just walks

people through step by step,

how do you actually pass this bill in

your city, in your town? How

do you reach out to council

members? How does the legislative process

work? And you’ll find

everything you need there,

including like a sample email script that

you can use for reaching

out to council members,

the info packet that you can bring to the

meeting, sample scripts for

like giving testimony at a

public hearing when your bill comes to a

vote. So one of the most

impactful and concrete and

actionable and local and immediate things

that people can do right

now is to start working on

these non-discrimination protections. So

if you visit our website,

open-help.org slash legislative

advocacy, you can find that toolkit. You

can also find a form to let

us know that you’re interested

in working on this work and we can

provide you with support. We can meet

with you to help walk

you through the process, connect you with

other organizers in your

city. So that’s one of the most

concrete and actionable things.

Otherwise, keep your eyes peeled for the

week of visibility. Coming

up this summer, we encourage people to

organize local in-person

or virtual events in their

community. Keep your eyes open for the

community survey coming

later in the year and please do

share that. And then finally, as I

touched on earlier, we really

do count on people’s financial

support. We are community funded, 97% of

our contributions have

come from individuals so far.

We have not yet closed our budget for the

entirety of 2025. So we

really do need folks support to

make sure that not only can we finish the

year but that we can continue

to show up to continue to do

this really important work because there

is a lot of work that needs

to be done as we’ve touched on

this conversation. If folks are

interested in making a larger

contribution, they can reach out to us.

One of the benefits of being a bigger

donor is you get to say how your money

gets spent. So if you’re

interested, for example, in helping fund

a lifestyle specific

free peer support session,

I would really love to work with somebody

and slap their name on

it. So lots of opportunities

to help not just support our work but to

actively shape our work. So

you can find our donate page,

open-love.org slash donate. And there’s

also an email, a contact

email on that page where you can

reach out if you’re interested in

learning a little bit more

in a deeper conversation.

That’s fantastic. Now, let’s ask the

question that you want to ask, and then

I’m going to use the

Dr. Vivek Murthy. I’m going to use his as

a summary. Yeah, I

figured that would be good.

Okay, one of the things that we have as a

kind of unwritten, sometimes

written rule in swinging is

don’t talk about politics. I’m going to

break that rule just because

we’ve been talking a lot about

legislation and laws and things that are

going on in this country and funding,

funding for programs

and nonprofits, things that are maybe

equitable and inclusive and

maybe the diversity of what’s

going on in the lifestyle and

non-monogamy. Have you seen any direct

impacts based on the last

three weeks of the current

administration? Yeah, let me

start with where you started,

which is that don’t talk about politics.

Listen, I get that rule,

right? Like I go to sex parties,

too. I don’t want to hear people talking

about gun control or

immigration while I’m trying to

get down. But we have to talk about

politics at some point,

because what we are doing is

fundamentally political. Everything is

political. Families are

political. Relationships are

political. Sex is political. And if we

don’t talk about politics,

if we don’t claim our voice in

this conversation, they are going to,

whichever they you want that to be,

they’re going to make

the rules for us. We have to organize. We

have to get political.

Otherwise, nothing is going to

change. Nothing is going to change. We’re

not going to have greater

rights. We’re not going to

have greater acceptance. We’re going to

continue to see lifestyle

clubs getting shut down or rated

by the police. We’re going to continue to

see people get CPS called

on them. These are political

issues. We have to talk about politics.

Now, to ground that a

little bit more into the actual

present political context, right? Like

we’re recording here

February 2025, month two of the

second Trump term. We don’t super know

yet how this is going to play out.

Certainly, we’ve seen

a lot more direct attacks against other

marginalized groups,

particularly immigrants,

particularly trans folks. That obviously

impacts monogamous folks as

well, right? Like LGBTQ plus

folks are more likely to be

non-monogamous. Trans folks are more

likely to have like chosen families

and networks of relationships and care

outside of normative

models. But in terms of a direct

targeting of non-monogamy, we still don’t

know. However, we can

speculate a little bit.

As folks may know, the blueprint for the

second Trump

administration, the policy blueprint is

project 2025. This is a like 700 page

document that outlines in excruciating

detail the administration’s

goals for the second term. The document

starts with four promises,

right? These are the four

pillars of all of their policy work. The

very first one of those

promises is to restore

the family to the center point of

American life and protect children. When

they say the family,

let’s be very clear, they mean a

heterosexual, monogamous,

married couple with kids.

Right. So even if you’re in the lifestyle

and still in an otherwise

fairly monogamous looking

partnership, whether you’re married or

not, whether you’re

heterosexual or not, be aware that like,

this still means that they want to squash

us. They want to make sure

that there are no lifestyle

clubs left. They will pass local

ordinances, they will pass state bills to

shut these clubs down.

They will make sure that pornography is

not accessible. We’ve

already seen states starting to

raise test bills to completely ban

pornography, going far beyond the

existing states that have

already passed age verification laws,

which means that you’ve

got to submit your personally

identifying information into a database

in order to look at porn and

then have it attached to your

identity, which I certainly don’t want.

Who knows how that gets

compromised or who uses that.

Right to contraception is being called

into question, right?

Like I think contraception is

pretty important for folks in the

lifestyle, for everyone

really. No fault divorce is even

being floated by some commentators on the

right as being a target

wherein you can no longer just

divorce your partner without cause. You

need to have some cause. As

I mentioned, Supreme Court

precedent is very much on the chopping

block. So just as Roe v.

First Wade was repealed,

so could Lawrence v. Texas, which is a

far less old precedent than

Roe v. Wade was, and then it

means that you could start seeing anti

adultery laws enforced and criminal

charges pressed against

people for participating in the

lifestyle. So we don’t know, but we have

very real reason to be

concerned. The one more thing I want to

note too, and I don’t necessarily know

even like what to say

about this, but like there, I know that

there are lifestyleers that are

supportive of the current

administration. Like I know them

individually, I know they’re so them who

have donated, which I’m

very grateful for. They are probably

listeners of your podcast that are

supportive of the current

administration. I’m not going to touch on

like the broader stuff, but I

do think it’s very important

for folks to be aware that they may be

putting themselves, their

interests, their community at

risk. And I would encourage people if

they do want to remain anchored into that

political identity or

in those political spaces to speak up, to

speak up. Nobody can like be on

everything. Nobody can

be across every issue. This is an issue

that if you’re listening,

you’re probably participating in.

And so if you have the ear of people that

are conservative, are you’re in

conservative forums,

maybe speak up and be like, hey, this is

actually like kind of totally fine and

okay and not hurting

one and like essential American freedom

to do what I want with

my body and who I want. So

I just want to say like, I don’t want

people to be turned off.

Like it’s no surprise, you know,

my deeper feelings towards Trump being

like a queer Bay Area millennial

polyamorous vegetarian

than I am. But you know, I still want to

speak with the folks that

are a little bit more on the

MAGA side of things and say like, you’ve

got a role to play in this

too. In some ways, you’ve got

an even greater obligation. Yeah, I mean,

if anything, they are

the voice of reason within

their party to be able to say, hey, this

thing that you’re doing,

this putting your thumb on

this thing, I’m in that thing. That’s me.

And realize that while

we don’t necessarily agree

on all the other things that you pointed

out, you know, Second

Amendment and immigration and

whatever other hot button topic it is,

anybody who’s listening to this podcast,

watching us on YouTube, more likely than

not, is part of this

umbrella group of non monogamy.

And there are issues that you brought up,

especially

contraception and a bunch of other

things. Pornography, the one that comes

to mind for me, and we’ve

we’ve talked about this a number

of times, and that’s even sex toys. There

are states where owning or

having shipped to your home

a sex toy is illegal. And so you could

face time because there

are laws on the books and

with the right district attorney, they

will start pressing

charges on those things. So

if you’re listening, this is incumbent on

you to help protect the

rest of the community and

and think, if anything, think for

yourself and think for your fellow

swingers about how is this

really going to swing against us? And

what do we what are we going to do? How

are we going to protect

ourselves and protect our our fellow

community members from things

that may be coming down? And

you may not agree with Project 2025, or

you agree with pieces of

it. The important thing is

picking the things that you don’t agree

with and making sure

that they don’t happen.

So they have it. Yeah, because they’re,

they’re never the Trump

White House is never going to

listen to me, they might listen to you.

So if there are folks that

are interested in chatting

about this, like I’d love to like, let’s

do like a MAGA lifestyle

political action committee.

Right. Let’s, you know, like, let’s

organize, like, let’s reach

across the aisles here. And

let’s organize for our shared interests.

That’s fundamental to

organizing. And this moment calls

for it. Absolutely. Couldn’t agree with

you more. I wanted to talk

about or kind of wrap this up,

because I really loved what the last

surgeon general had said,

and this was came from Vivek

Murthy. And I heard him on NPR, and I was

driving. And so I was trying

to get all was doing. I was

doing a voice to text. So I wasn’t typing

while I was driving. But he

was, he was really focused,

or his last words as he was exiting his

position was he’s, he said, I

really, I would love for all

of us to return to who we fundamentally

are and get back to happiness

by focusing on relationships,

purpose, and service. And it just gives

me chills to, to say that

and to repeat what he had said,

because I think that’s just very profound

and just very much needed

right now, very much needed.

So I, I loved this conversation so much

that we’ve had with you

today, Brett, and I love what your

organization is doing. We are going to

continue to, to push your organization

in, in any way we can.

And we’re looking for more ways to do

that. And so certainly when

the study comes out, and the

visibility comes out in July, we’re going

to be promoting that as

well. And, gosh, you know,

we’re starting to organize some, some

events. We’ve got some

ideas in our, in our pocket. So

we’ll have to do an event in July for

sure. Oh, 100%. Yeah. Yeah. So

any last words, Brett,

before we do our final wrap up?

Yeah. Well, first of all, thank you so

much for your support. Thanks to the

listeners. I would be

happy to hear from any of you, you know,

we’re really here to

serve this community. So reach

out to us at any time, info at

open-love.org. I’ll review YouTube

comments. I make a call a little

too woke and I’m happy to take it. But

yeah, I mean, it’s hard,

it’s hard to top that, right?

At the end of the day, like what is

there, but connection, but,

but joy. And so, you know, I

really think that I just enjoy his future

is achievable. It’s a

multi-generational project,

but I really think that this is, this is

essential to it. And I

think this work matters.

Yeah. We do too.

Greed.

We do too. Thanks for tuning in. We

appreciate you joining our community.

Don’t forget your homework,

tell a friend about our show and leave a

review and comment. If you

wish, you can also leave us

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you can leave us a 90 second message and

we can even use it in the

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us a question, it’s just burning to find

out what we think about it,

please leave us a message.

I want to throw in before you say that

final catchy line that we

are going to provide everyone

with all the great links that Brett was

calling out today during the

interview. Those will be in

our show notes in case you’re listening

to the podcast. And they’ll

also be on YouTube as well.

And so don’t fret. We will have all of

those great links for you.

Yes. So as we say, keep learning, keep

growing and keep it sexy.