Do you love your community and want more events?  Well, your beloved promoters may not be the event hosts you think they are.  We reveal the dirty secrets of the swinging business and how some think it’s a zero-sum game.

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 We discuss how some swinging businesses hurt swingers and our community because the drive for money takes priority over doing what’s best for the community.

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Do you love your community and want more events? Well, your beloved promoters may not be who you think they are. We reveal the dirty secrets of the swinging business and how some people think it’s a zero-sum game.

Welcome to Swinger University. I’m Ed. And I’m Phoebe. Join us as we explore the exciting world of ethical non-monogamy, sexual health, sex education, with an intellectual and sexy twist. Where do we want to start?

This has been an episode that we’ve kind of had in our notes and in recordings in a car trip since way back in the day. Actually, if you’ve listened to all of our episodes, the Colorado House Party, we came up with this topic back then. There have been a number of incidents since then that have continued to kind of fuel the content for this episode. Along with our personal experience that is on the side of an actual business promoter, so to speak. We’re not really a business promoter, but we cross into that line a little bit because we are promoting the podcast and we are reaching out to other people and being on their podcast and doing the social media. So we’re starting to open that window. That window is starting to crack open. Yeah, and we did promote one event, our Costa Rica event. We’ve touched that line of being a promoter to a certain degree. So yeah, there’s some stuff there. It’s a bit… It was eye-opening. People warned us and so we have things to share. The House Party, are we going to reveal the venue? It doesn’t really matter, does it?

It probably doesn’t, but you know what? Let’s just refrain from mentioning the title. Okay, a very popular swinger.

Venue. Venue. In Colorado. Yes. We’ll leave it at that.

There was a very active member in that community, in that club, who decided that the House parties that were also being run in Colorado and kind of the general area around where this club was, were hurting the business and they wanted to take things into their own hands to help the business because they loved it so much. They loved that business so much. So this individual, on their own accord, as far as we know, went out of their way to… This is where it gets fun.

Docs, the participants and the attendees and the hosts for these House parties to their entire neighborhood. Yes. Now, theoretically, the story is that the venue had no idea what this person was doing, and it was just this… Right. We don’t know. We can neither confirm nor deny. Right. But they went to great lengths to go to troll all these people on all their… On the adult platforms that they’re all signed up with, to see what the guest list is. And this may have been one of the reasons why… What was it? Cassidy or SLS would remove the guest list after the party was over? Yeah, they did, but I doubt that it had anything to do with that. I think it was just… Just poor foresight in terms of what people do with guest lists. So then he had their photos. He would take their photos and he… I think he printed them out. Printed them up on flyers and brought them door to door to those individuals’ neighborhoods.

And basically said, “The House parties are running a sex ring, a prostitution ring, a drug ring.” Like all kinds of crazy shit to get them shut down. Well, the HOAs were up at arms, of course, because HOAs are up at arms about everything. And a lot of people got hurt as a direct result of this. There were jobs that were impacted, community standing was impacted, a bunch of House parties shut down because of this. Yeah. And people had to move and they got fired from jobs or had to leave their jobs. It was a massive, massive impact. The guy slipped up eventually because he was bragging about what he had done to try and to help the community. He was helping the community. That was his whole thing.

And one of the people was friends with one of the House parties at this dinner event and basically was like, “Oh, this is the guy that did all of this.” And they blackballed this guy. He had a little bit of karma in what happened to him, but the damage was done. Yes. And we heard all about this from some of the members at one of the House parties we were at while we were there. Yeah. So the harm that this does is it creates fear in the community. It’s certainly not supporting the community and the growth of the community. Right. And the fact that we all love one another and we all like being with each other and hanging out and we like diversity. Right. Novelty. And that’s part of the reason why we go to this venue and then to that venue. And then we fly out of state for venues or out of the country for… Right. Right. It’s what we do. It’s what we love. And he really put a damper on that and, you know, kind of a fear in the community. We’ve found going to the same party over and over again, we get tired of seeing the same venue. Like sometimes we want to go to a pool party. Sometimes we want to try a bigger scale party. Sometimes we want something quiet and intimate because we’re just feeling a little overwhelmed by stuff.

So getting a whole bunch of parties shut down just because you think that’s not the way that swingers should play. That’s ridiculous. That makes no sense whatsoever. But like I said, superfan of that particular venue. It could have also been, and we’re going to touch on this in a bit, that mentality of glass half empty, glass half full. And we have another way of saying that in this next example that we’re going to provide. You can draw your own conclusions in terms of whether that was positive or negative for the community. And we’d love to hear your side of or your opinion about that particular incident and what you would think about that in the comments.

But let’s cross into another one. This one was a little bit more interesting. We didn’t hear this. We did hear this secondhand again. There was a podcast panel. So a group of podcasters at an event, a couple of the panelists who were expressing some particularly negative opinions,

it’s not even that. They were degrading the people who were their own community. And they really like right there in front of the whole audience basically tore the whole thing down, tore the community down. And it was really weird to us. They got a lot of funny looks. It was strange to hear those words from this group in that context. It just didn’t make any sense. We heard about it afterwards. We were like, “Well, there’s a little bit more to that.” And it kind of makes sense coming from this particular group. But it took a lot of people by surprise. They were shocked at that, especially their fellow panelists. Right. Yeah. The other one was in…

We can say it. Okay. Vegas. It was in Vegas and we had gone to an event and we helped promote it. And it was an event that could have been much better in regard to turnout because once again,

a rival promoter that happened to be in the city was creating a bunch of noise. They went to great lengths on social media to say the event was canceled when it wasn’t. So directly impacting this particular promoter’s business and trying to squash the event. So a lot of ticket sales were canceled. People backed out. Right. They wanted refunds. Of course, the promoter did so, but it impacted the guests that were there that didn’t or couldn’t cancel. It impacted the entertainment that was showing up for the event. A lot of entertainment backed out. Therefore, our experience was less because we expected more, but the promoter couldn’t provide more because entertainment wasn’t. Right. So it had this… It was a pretty serious cascade effect. Yeah. We were really looking forward to this event because it was supposed to be a… It felt like it was going to be a really big event and there were going to be a lot of people there. And it was a really low turnout. There were not nearly as many people as we had expected. And it was really interesting later after we had done a tour of the Mob Museum in Vegas.

We reflected back on that situation and we thought, “Gosh, this plays directly into that Vegas mob mentality.” Right. There really still is a lot of that, I guess, mentality, so to speak, in Vegas. The word of mouth around that town is like wildfire. Yeah. So when one person gets a contract shut down, it’s heard all the way across the city. Right. That information is shared. Yeah. So let’s do that. Let’s jump into the consequences because you’re starting to really touch on them. So in that first one, the community felt shamed. The fellow panelists felt like they had been called out basically in front of the whole group and in a sense felt less than because this one opinion of somebody about what had been said. It’s one of those things where, as my grandmother used to say, “If you don’t have anything nice to say, don’t say anything at all.” But I think it’s important to say things, but you have to think about what are the consequences of what you’re saying. It’s okay to say negative things. And we think very deeply about what we’re going to say in our episodes before we just spit it out

for fear of lawsuits, for fear of consequences, or how that might affect other people. So for example, we had a policy for a long time about not bad-mouthing bad experiences. So if we go to events, a house party, for example, and we don’t like it, we don’t come onto the microphones and tell everybody what a shitty party it was. It’s not worth it for us. Well, and it’s always subjective as well because it could be shit because we’re in a bad headspace. It wasn’t our crowd. It wasn’t our crowd or it wasn’t our venue or we didn’t like the paint on the walls. I mean, it’s so subjective. So it’d be asinine for me to think that my opinion is going to be the same as somebody else’s. Yeah. And for the most part too, I think if we’ve had conversations about venues with other swingers, personal conversations with our friends about how we wouldn’t attend that party again, or we’ve chosen not to attend certain parties in our area because they don’t sound like our cup of tea. Right. So we’ve had those conversations, not to say we never say anything bad and we’re just super PC all the time. It’s just we choose not to use our microphones as a way of tearing down other venues because don’t yuck somebody else’s yum, as they say. Exactly.

The other thing about that that we find and have issue with is it makes the community look bad. It makes swingers look bad. We should be rooted out from society because we can’t even get along amongst ourselves. And yeah, every swingers not going to get along with every other swinger, but

let’s not make it personal. It’s not. And when your business gets in the way of kind of other people’s pleasure, that’s a big problem. Yeah. Now, what also happened, unfortunately, in Vegas was lawsuits were also like several lawsuits were launched because it was just that bad. In fact, one of the employees, I believe at the venue, one of the venues revealed private contract details to the other promoter. And that is a serious no-no. Right. This wasn’t just social engineering or social bad mouthing. Like, there were some actual illegal things, allegedly. We don’t know what the status of that lawsuit is, but we’re assuming they continued with it or they settled out of court. Who knows? Right. The other cascade effect it had on the community was other hotels that had been booked by additional promoters that come to the city. Many promoters come to the city wanting to do things for the city, wanting to do things for the swinger community. Those well-known hotels said, “Oh,

in light of that hot mess that just went down, we are not going to allow any swingers or any swinger promoters to come and book our hotel,” which is hard and hurtful because those venues are few and far between. Right. You can’t find swinger clubs on every corner of the city. And even in Vegas, where there are a handful of them, a lot of them got shut down. There were a number of other events that got shut down, at least during that timeframe. I’m sure that they’ve ramped back up. I mean, we’ve heard about some of the parties back. But it’s difficult to cultivate those relationships. Yes. You know how hard it is to cultivate a relationship with another couple. Right. It’s equally hard to cultivate that relationship with a business and convince them that we’re not weirdos, we’re not going to destroy the hotel. I mean, we’re not running around naked outside. It takes some convincing, right? Yeah. So it put a kibosh on the community and it was unfortunate. That’s actually an interesting segue and I’ll touch on it briefly and then we’ll go back to the kind of the wrap-up that we have.

We’ve been talking about promoters and how they kind of backstab and create problems for the community as a whole. But participants can also screw a venue too. Yeah. There have been a number of events that we used to be able to attend, or I should say venues that we used to use for our local events that won’t do business with the local promoters anymore. They had an incident and they said, “Nope, this is bad for business. We’re not going to do business with that group anymore.” Right? Right. We all get lumped together because we’re a community

Friends, Sex, Travel, Parties, Events! All at

and there’s a whole list of hotels. Until they change ownership or they change business policies or something changes, we’ll never be able to do events at those places again. That’s where self-policing within the Swinger community is important. If you see someone that maybe has been enjoying a little bit too much of whatever they’re enjoying for that evening to get their little buzz on. Help them and help the community. Yes. If you go, “Ooh, that’s going to turn out badly.” If they’re streaking down the hallway, yes, that is funny and it’s hilarious and it’s great to capture on your camera, but will that impact your ability to come back at that hotel? 100% if you get caught because there’s cameras and security. Maybe help the other person not make that decision. Take it in a room. Maybe check yourself with yourself and go, “Do I really need that funny video because I may never be able to come back to this state, to this hotel again.” You have to make the call. Is that one party worth never having a party again? I know. That’s the thought that needs to cross through your head. Yes. Because that’s quite possible. You think about house parties. A lot of house parties are run in people’s neighborhoods and their neighbors may or may not want you vomiting on their lawn or leaving condoms all over the place or bottles or parking on their lawn. We’ve heard horror stories about this stuff. So it’s like, have a little, A, self-respect, B, respect for the community, and C, think about tomorrow and the next day and the day after that and not just live in the moment. Exactly. There’s more to it. I agree. So what is our wrap up for this? Like I said, I’ve been thinking about this episode for a long time and I felt as podcasters and swingers that we need to do everything we could to support the community. And when an individual or a group of people or a promoter does something that impacts the rest of us, we need to think about that a little bit as a community and whether we continue to support something like that because it does impact all of us. And I think taking a stand against that and basically saying, look, money isn’t everything because if your whole scheme is get rich quick, the rest of us are going to suffer as a direct result of this. So let’s not let money be the only driver for your business. Let’s think about how

what you’re doing affects the community. But they may not see things that way if they’re looking at it as the glass is half empty. Right. With that scarcity mindset and you’re trying to get as many customers and draw as many people as you want to your business and to your dollar, they’re not going to necessarily see it that way. Yeah. And I think, and this is kind of where we get into this, this other phrase besides the zero sum game. I believe that there are a number of businesses and a number of promoters that feel that if I can maximize my profit, in other words, put everybody else out of business and I’m the only game in town that I’m going to make more money. Right. Because swingers are, they’re only going to have one stop to shop. They’re going to come to me. The long and short of it is we like variety. And so if there’s only one club to go, what’s going to happen is you’re going to burn out your clientele. They probably won’t be back a second or third time, or they may only come occasionally because you know what? Someone is going to put a house party together. Someone’s going to have something that’s fun and different and a change of pace and a different crowd and a different DJ and better food or whatever.

The other thing that’ll happen is your venue does your thing and other venues are going to do a different thing. So how the party is run and what gets offered there, that’s what makes each party unique. A rising tide lifts all ships. I think it was a Kenneth John F. Kennedy quote. And the concept, and I really believe this is true in our community. And that’s if the swinger business is thriving and it helps other businesses thrive, the community gets a better name. Why? Because we have the best parties in town. All of the parties are amazing. And what does that do? Well, it gets attention and positive attention. Plus new people coming in, they go, well, a big club isn’t intimate enough for me. I feel very scared to go, but I’ll go to a house party. It’s a gateway to go to that bigger club in six months once they’ve got their legs under them. But if there’s only one place to go, they’re not going to show up. So that variety drives the business for everybody and allows for that flexibility and that fun and that variety. So I can’t see a way where having more businesses doesn’t help everybody. I agree. 100%. That was a really good wrap up, I think. Although I did want to add our own personal experience, just a small little… Just a little thing.

It’s a little thing, but it had a large effect. Right. So as co-promoters

of something that we went to, we were shocked and dismayed and honestly pretty upset by a reaction that we got by something innocent that we had done. Right. We thought we were doing it in support of the community to further the community. And it was looked at as being blatant self-promotion. Yeah. It shocked me. You’ve worked at the same job six years and your boss all of a sudden blames you for something and you go, “You know me by now. We work together every day, day in and day out. You know I would never do something like that. Why didn’t you just come and ask me first? Why are you assuming that was my intention? Because you know me.” And so I guess we were hurt because we thought we knew each other better than that and I guess we didn’t. And the assumption that we would intentionally harm that that was the first

assumption hurt my feelings. Yeah, it did mine too. And I think that from the get-go with our podcast, our sole intent was to educate the community and help them to have better experiences in the lifestyle. Yeah. 100%. I mean, we’re not about jokes. We’re not about cocktail recipes. We’re more educational than entertainment. Hopefully we’re a little entertaining. Trying to be more entertaining. But the main driver for what we do is to help the community.

So yeah, that initial assumption that we were doing something to promote ourselves,

holy crap, this is not a business venture. We tried for a year to make this cash money and retire off of it. It didn’t happen. We’re still here and working our day jobs. Five extra listeners to our podcast is going to like ooh out of a group of a few hundred people. Like really? It’s just ridiculous. It wasn’t a thing. It was made into a thing that just wasn’t a thing. And that hurt a little bit. I think it hurt because we were trying to do something good for the community to help promote and to help make it a better experience for everybody. And this zero sum game mentality came in and kind of took us out. Yeah. Kind of sideswiped us. And yeah, that was pretty rough for a couple days when we were thinking about that. We didn’t let it get to us too much, but it did. I don’t know. It still bothers us. It got to us quite a bit. Yeah. You’re being kind. But it did. And it’s one of the reasons why we don’t really want to be event promoters. I’m not really interested in it. It’s a lot of work and I so appreciate those people that can do it. Yes. But it’s very hard work. It’s a lot of hard work and it’s very stressful. And there’s a lot of risk on the line, a lot of risk. So kudos to those that do do it. And I am happy to support and continue to support them 100%. Absolutely.

Thanks everyone for listening.

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